Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy – editorial by Gresh, discusses slut shaming, rape culture, modesty – has points I agree and disagree with

Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy – editorial

This editorial had some points I agreed with but some I did not. Under this long excerpt are rebuttals by a reader of this editorial on Christian Post.

(Link): Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy, by Dannah Gresh


    April 16, 2014|4:39 pm
    Recently, modesty proponents have been accused of promoting “rape culture” by both faith-based and mainstream bloggers and columnists. The thinking, led by secular third wave feminists, asserts that discussing modesty “sexualizes women” which in turn contributes to rape crimes.

    During the same time period over 100 million readers made E.L. James’ Fifty Shades of Grey the fastest-selling paperback of all time. Barna research reports no statistical difference in the percentage of Christian women versus the general public reading the series, which glamorizes sexual violence against women. The Christian media has been largely silent on this issue.

    As a leader in both the modesty movement and the fight against women being victimized by pornography and erotica, I find the Christian response to reveal a tragic double standard.

    Does teaching modesty promote “rape culture”? A better question to begin with is this: does “rape culture” even exist?

    Last month, a TIME Magazine article declared that it was “Time To End Rape Culture Hysteria.” Writer Caroline Kitchens championed the report of the nation’s leading anti-sexual violence organization, RAINN, which rebuked the overemphasis on the concept of “rape culture” as a means of preventing rape, citing that 90% of rapes on college campuses are committed by 3% of the male population. RAINN argues that rape is the product of individuals who have decided to disregard the overwhelming cultural messages that rape is wrong.

    The fact is rape crime is on the decline.

    …. The RAINN report argues that the trend towards focusing on cultural factors “has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

    … The “rape culture” idea is a feminist dogma implying that ultimately all women are victimized by men. This monolithic generalization paralyzes us from focusing together on how we can continue the good work of reducing the number of victims.

    The reduction would begin by cancelling out the fallacious “victim” label placed on those who’ve been encouraged to dress modestly. Case in point is the current verbal riot occurring over an Evanston, Illinois public school dress code, which showcases well how harmful the “rape culture” vultures can be. Under allegations that the school recently banned leggings and yoga pants, feminists accused the district of “slut shaming” girls.

    …And there’s nothing wrong with teaching Christian girls and women that God wants nothing they wear to distract from the good works they do and the great minds God’s given to them. In fact, from a biblical perspective it’s very right.

    …This same sad dichotomy is seen in the Christian dialogue with bloggers fueling the self-proclaimed “evangelistic” rhetoric of third wave feminists under the guise of Christian socialism, while those on the front lines as activists-teaching girls and women to respect themselves by training them in the biblical concepts of modesty and purity, and binding the wounds of those victimized by porn and erotica-take the blows of their hollow arguments.

    … The Christian media should lead the charge in righting this grave double standard. That is, unless, we are going to continue to take our cues from the feminist culture, which applies “tolerance” to any sexual preference unless it lines up with God’s plan for sexuality.

Responses by readers of the editorial:

    by RoyalCourt

    This is one of those topics where both sides – secular feminists and Christians – get some points right, but get some points wrong. I’ve nothing against parents teaching daughters to dress modestly – however, there are some incorrect assumptions being made by Christians who teach modesty.

    First of all, women are visually stimulated too, not just men, as Christians erroneously teach. There is a double standard, though, where Christians only tell women to dress modestly, but never advise young, hot sexy men with nice bods to keep their t-shirts on.

    Secondly, modesty should not be taught to females in such a way to suggest that they are responsible for the male gaze or male sexual sins.

    In the end scheme of things, it matters not if a buxom, nuible young thing parades naked in front of a Christian man: he is still responsible for his thought life and his actions, regardless of how a woman is dressed.

    Lastly, what one man considers modest another would still consider immodest, sexy, or a “turn on.” There is no universally-agreed upon definition or dress code for what constitutes “modest,” unless Christians want to start forcing all women to wear Islamic burkas.

    Continue reading

No Man’s Land – Part 3 – Liberal Christians, Post Evangelicals, and Ex-Christians Mocking Biblical Literalism, Inerrancy / Also: Christians Worshipping Hurting People’s Feelings

No Man’s Land – Part 3 – Liberal Christians, Post Evangelicals, and Ex-Christians Mocking Biblical Literalism, Inerrancy / Also: Christians Worshipping Hurting People’s Feelings


Another common thread I see on forums for spiritual recovery sites (or ones by ex Christians, liberal Christians, etc), is a rejection of

1. Biblical literalism
2. Biblical inerrancy

This is all so much intellectual dishonesty in another form it makes me want to throw up.

I spent years studying about the history of the Bible, Bible translation, and so forth.

I came away realizing that the Bible is inerrant and yes, we can trust the copies we have today; the Bible is not filled with historic blunders and mistakes, and all the other tripe atheists like to claim.

It is not entirely accurate for critics to paint the Bible as a purely man-made document, that contains mistakes because it was copied and re-copied numerous times over the centuries.

While there is an aspect of truth to that description, the end conclusion, or how that description, impacts the NIV or NASB Bible version you have sitting on your coffee table right now, is not how critics of the Bible paint it.

Atheists and ex-Christians who are critical of the Bible are disingenuous and duplicitous in how they paint some of their arguments against the Bible, and they should be ashamed for it, as some of them claim to be truth lovers.

Not too long ago, an ex-Christian woman at another site was declaring that Christians cannot “trust” the Bible because the originals (called the Autographa) do not exist.

Oh please! I pointed out to her that is not so: as far as the New Testament is concerned, scholars have many thousands of copies of the Autographa (some dating within decades of the originals), and by use of lower textual criticism, they can reconstruct the READINGS of the Autographa.

It is not necessary to have “the biblical originals” themselves to know what they said, as she was dishonestly arguing (but she later accused me of being dishonest!).

I pointed this FACT out to her (about it not being necessary to have the autographa to know what the autographa said), where upon she shot back the falsity that one cannot trust the translations anyway because they are done by “conservatives.”

Oh, but she is willing to grant liberal scholars or liberal theologians the title of un-biased, as though they do not have an ax to grind against the Bible and dating its documents and so forth?

Because the liberal scholars do in fact start out their examinations of the Bible from an anti- Christian bias.

The woman with whom I was corresponding on this matter doesn’t seem to understand that the practice of lower textual criticism is a science – a liberal who uses that methodology would come to the same conclusion as the conservative who uses it.

So here we have an example of one type of ex-Christian I am talking about:

This woman claims she was a Christian at one time, now fancies herself atheist or agnostic (and some kind of expert on the Bible), but who now spews inaccurate or untrue things about the Bible, because she disdains all of Christianity in general.

My view: Do not lie about the Bible’s history, accuracy, and textual evidence just because “Preacher Fred” at your old church was a big meanie to you X years ago (or insert whatever other emotional baggage you carry against Christians that now colors all your other views about the faith and Bible here) – please!

Give me a freaking break.

I am genuinely compassionate towards people who have been hurt by churches, but not to the point I cover for their dishonesty about how they discuss church history, the biblical documents, etc.

Because some of these folks claim to have been hurt by Christians in general, or a particular denomination, or what have you, they feel fine now rejecting biblical literalism and inerrancy.

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No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

✹ What follows is actually the heart of my “No Man’s Land” view. This is what prompted me to write it: ✹


As to the forums and blogs by ex Christians, liberal Christians, self identifying post-evangelicals, or those still Christian who expose spiritual abuse…

I notice a number of the regular visitors to these sites – the ones who left an abusive or legalistic church or denomination – simply now operate in the reverse in their thinking, which is, IMO, just as bad or wrong as the thinking they are leaving.

There are different types of ex-Christians one must take into consideration when discussing this topic, so I shall present some sketches of them first.

IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists)

For example, there are ex IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists).

IFB preachers and churches are ridiculously legalistic. They make up rules that are not in the Bible, or twist or exaggerate the rules already there to the point those rules then become unbiblical.

IFBs are the contemporary, American versions of the Bible’s Pharisees: nit picky, anal retentive, legalists who make up man-made rules but insist they are “biblical” and thus binding on all believers.

IFBs concoct man-made traditions they expect all IFB members to adhere to, just like the Roman Catholic hierarchy does towards Roman Catholic members.

For example, IFB churches are legalistic about secular entertainment and clothing and physical appearance.

IFB churches teach their congregations that women should not wear pants but only skirts. And the skirts should be only so many inches above or below the knee.

According to IFBs, men should not have hair that touches the back shirt collar – not a mullet to be found in IFB, which may be a good thing. Secular music and television is sinful and should always be avoided.

IFBs have other legalistic rules for just about every aspect of life.

IFBs are vehemently anti-Roman Catholicism as well as anti-Calvinism.

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No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (Part 1)

No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (PART 1)

This will be a series of posts where my thoughts wander in and out and all over, and it rambles, but there is a point or two behind it.

Since I’ve been in a faith crisis the last couple of years, somewhere between being an agnostic and a Christian, I have noticed I don’t fit in anywhere. I reside in No Man’s Land.

(Even before then, when I was a total, committed Christian, and politically, I was, and am, right wing, I still didn’t fit in at most blogs and forums, including political ones, and including ones for right wingers!

I tend to be one of those personalities who annoys or angers everyone, even those on “my side” of an issue, except a small number of people, who are either on my side of a topic or not, who “get me” or who appreciate where I’m coming from – again, this is true for even the ones who disagree with me on whatever topic we are discussing.)

I am in this really weird place now, where I am critical of some aspects of conservative Christianity, and see where conservative Christians get some doctrines and other things wrong, but, too, I am not fully on board with militant atheism (I find the New Atheists to be arrogant, vile, hateful and rude), and I don’t even care for lukewarm atheism.

Nor am I in the camp of anything and all things liberal Christianity, except where I think they get the occasional point correct (such as their rejection of gender complementarianism).

Since drifting away from the Christian faith more the last few years, I more often began frequenting forums or blogs for and by atheists, ones by liberal Christians, ones by ex Christians, or by Christians who were abused by a former church who remain Christian but who dropped out of Church, or who now are on a crusade to expose abuse by preachers or the absurdity and harm of current evangelical gimmicks.


A clarification: when I say I have been visiting atheist forums and blogs more often, I am very picky about which ones I regularly visit.

I do not like the frothing- at- the- mouth, extremely bitter, biased- against- Christians- type atheistic communities.

The bitter atheist groups sound like a bunch of irrational, hate-filled loons who reject Christianity for emotional reasons, but who lie to others and themselves and say, “Oh no, it’s purely intellectual.”

But their unrelenting, insane amount of hatred at any and all things God and Christian, is just a total turn-off to me, so I try to avoid such sites.

These angry, always-ranting atheists are really nothing more than Fundamentalist Atheists or Taliban Atheists. They are just as dogmatic about their atheism as Muslims are in their Wasabi Islam or Baptists are in their Neo Fundamentalism.

Really, those types of atheists are just as bad as the religious groups they claim they hate, but they don’t seem to spot that they are. It’s ironic – and it’s hard to stomach the day in, day out anger and hatred, so I try to avoid their sites.


Also, you have to be honest with yourself, which I do not find militant atheists to be, by and large: not every single Christian is a hypocrite, jerk, idiot, dullard, or complete jackhole.

I say this as someone who is very fed up with Christianity and Christian persons myself these days.

But your average militant atheist will never admit that some Christians are in fact okay and not being hypocrites.

I have known and met a few Christians who were sincerely trying to live the Christian faith out, such as my mother, who is now deceased, and her mother before her (my grandmother).

I’ve met a few honest, sincere Christians online who do help people and show compassion to the wounded.

So it’s not fair to completely dismiss the entirety of Christians and their faith or treat them all like jerks because some are liars, mean, or abusive.

Which is not easy for me personally, because at the same time, I do keep noticing that a lot of self-professing believers do NOT live out what the Bible says.

Many self professing Christians today, for example, do not protect victims, such as young church members who have been sexually molested by preachers.

Nor do many church goers today hold accountable preachers who bilk their church goers out of millions to buy big mansions and jets.

These idiots, these lemmings, actually defend their greedy pastors online, which I’ve written about here: (Link): Your Preacher Sucks – and People Have a Right To Say So And Explain Why.

Then you have a conservative or evangelical culture, which claims to care deeply that people preserve sex until marriage, but if you actually find yourself 40 years of age and still single – and therefore still a virgin, such as myself – these same churches and Christians do not offer you any support.

You either go ignored, or preachers and talking heads of such groups “run down” and insult celibacy as well as older, celibate adults. Churches treat single (and especially celibate) adults as though they are flawed, lepers, weirdos, or losers.

Churches wrongly counsel abused wives to return to their spouses – this is particularly true, again, of churches or Christian groups who buy into “biblical womanhood” (aka “gender complementariansm”) or “patriarchy.”

Churches and average Christians also remain ignorant or callous about matters pertaining to mental health issues, from P.T.S.D. to depression and anxiety attacks.

Some Christians wrongly and insensitively teach that “real Christians” can never get depression or other mental health maladies.

Or, some Christians believe and teach that prayer, faith, service to the poor, or Bible reading alone can cure one of mental illness.

Still other Christians (or the same type) will shame and guilt suffering Christians for using anti-depressant medications, or for seeing secular or Christian psychiatrists and therapists (see this link for more, “Over 50 Percent of Christians Believe Prayer, Bible Reading Alone Can Cure Mental Illness (article) – In Other Words Half of Christians are Ignorant Idiots Regarding Mental Illness”).

Yet other Christians are incompetent at, or unwilling, to provide more ordinary, “every day,” run- of- the- mill comfort to other Christians who are hurting, such as a Christian who is stressed out over a job loss, someone who is in mourning for a deceased loved one, etc.

Christians are dropping the ball in numerous ways.

And this failure, this huge failure, causes life long Christians like me to look long and hard at the faith and wonder if it’s true at all.

It causes even someone such as myself to ask if the faith is true, because

  • it doesn’t appear to be working,
  • it doesn’t make a difference in people’s life who profess it,
  • most who claim to follow Christ don’t actually do what he taught,
  • and some Christians refuse to hold Christians caught in bald faced sin accountable but excuse them for the sin,
  • ~ and it makes you wonder “what is the point, then.”

    I find this discrepancy between confessed belief and actual practice shocking, because I myself sincerely tried living out the faith since childhood.

    Also, my Christian mother was a role model for me, and she genuinely, consistently lived out and by biblical teachings, including getting up off her ass and actually HELPING people (giving them money if they were in a bind, cleaning their homes for them when they were sick, listening to them cry and rant about their problems for hours without judging them or interrupting them, etc).

    I am not seeing most other Christians do any of this. They say they believe in those things but then they do not do them.


    Before I actually get into this topic (which I discuss more in Posts 2 and 3), here is some background leading up to it.

    As far as the sites I have visited by liberal Christians, ex Christians, atheists, as well as sites by Christians for the spiritually abused:

    By and large, these have been wonderful, supportive sites and groups to visit (the ones run by Christians for hurting Christians).

    I have noticed, though, that there are problems even within these types of communities, and I don’t entirely fit in at them, either.

    Continue reading

    Married Preacher, Father of Eight Kids, Used Nanny as Sex Object – update on Phillips story

    Married Preacher, Father of Eight Kids, Used Nanny as Sex Object – update on Phillips story
    WARNING. Post ahead contains some sexy scenarios, some adult material, if you will.
    I have written of this story before – twice. Here’s yet another update on the Phillips saga.

    Most Christians don’t support folks like me, who have stayed virgins into our 40s or older – I’ve never been married, but had wanted to be – but instead, Christians preach repeatedly on the importance of marriage and having children. They claim to defend and revere “family values.”

    Christians pay attention to marriage, married couples, and children and parenting all the time, but do little for or about older singles.

    I’m treated like persona non grata, or like a leper, depending on which denomination we’re considering, for being a childless, never married, 40 something virginal woman.

    But these guys who work as preachers who espouse the “nuclear family” ideal, who are married, some are fathers, get caught in affairs all the time. They are such flaming hypocrites it makes me want to form a fist and punch a hole in the wall.

    Instead of Christians harboring the unfair stereotype that never married men past age 30 are child molestors, given the staggering amount of news items I keep seeing of MARRIED CHRISTIAN MEN (see this link for examples) who are using prostitutes, having affairs, molesting kids, and acting inappropriate towards young women, I think the stereotype needs to be dropped.

    It’s much more accurate for Christians to suspect married men of sexual sin than un-married ones.

    We have an update on another married preacher, a marriage- and- family idolater, Doug Phillips, who apparently cheated on his wife, which you can read at (Link): Spiritual Sounding Board
    – under the “Lourdes Torres, Alleged Victim in the Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) Sex Abuse Scandals Files Lawsuit” post which was published April 15, 2013

    And here:
    (Link): Lawsuit claims S.A. religious leader preyed on his kids’ nanny

    And here:
    (Link): Sex Scandal Rocks The Duggars’ Christian Patriarchy Movement

      The far-right Christian Patriarchy—brought to American audiences by the Duggar family—is on the verge of collapse after a series of alleged sex scandals involving the movement’s leaders.

    And here:

    (Link): Pastor accused of ‘using nanny [Lourdes Torres] as sex object’, from WND

    This has nothing to do with anything, but in some of the photos, particularly the “red dress” photo, Torres looks like British R&B singer Amy Winehouse.
    Compare (Link): Torres’ Photo with (Link): Amy Winehouse photos and tell me if they don’t look like they could be sisters. Anyway…..

    Excerpts from WND article:

      April 2014

      Lawsuit claims religious leader promised to marry young woman after wife dies


      (Warning: This story contains explicit descriptions of alleged sexual conduct described in a lawsuit and may be offensive to some readers.)

      The former leader of a popular Christian ministry – who resigned from his position after confessing to an “inappropriate” relationship – is now the subject of a lawsuit that claims he “methodically groomed” and made unwanted sexual contact with a young woman after serving as an authority figure in her life for more than a decade.

      Doug Phillips, a husband and father of eight children, had been a popular and controversial figure in the homeschooling movement and a leading advocate of “biblical patriarchy” before his resignation from Vision Forum Ministries and Boerne Christian Assembly, a Baptist church outside San Antonio, Texas, at which he had served as an elder and preached hundreds of sermons.

      … According to the teachings of the patriarchy movement, also known as the stay-at-home daughters or quiverfull movement, young women remain at home under the protection of their fathers.

      They’re generally expected not to work outside their home or go to college, and they’re taught to abide by strict gender roles in which men have authority over women.

      ‘A personal sex object’

      In the complaint filed in Kendall County District Court in Texas Tuesday morning, Phillips is accused of using a woman named Lourdes Torres, now 29, as “a personal sex object” over a period of five years.

      … Torres said she met Phillips and his wife, Beall, at a homeschooling conference in November 1999 when Torres was 15 years old.

      Torres spent many hours in the Phillips home, cared for their children and helped run the family farm. She was invited on trips with the family to Hawaii, Virginia, Mexico, Florida and other states.

      Adulterer and Nuclear Family Idolater Doug Phillips Product: "Family Strategies" DVD Series

      (click the image to enlrage it) Adulterer and Nuclear Family Idolater Doug Phillips Product: “Family Strategies” DVD Series – The subtitle reads, “How to Build A Healthy Family Culture in Your Home” -I see. how does that fit a 50 something year old man hitting on a teen aged girl repeatedly?

      By 2007, according to the complaint, Phillips began “to pay special attention” to Torres, complementing her beauty and devotion to his family, giving her money, touching her, asking her personal questions about her thoughts and life plans and telling her he would take care of her.

      By October of that year, the lawsuit states, Phillips invited Torres’ family to live with him as they were moving into a new home: “Phillips entered [Torres'] bedroom and without her consent began touching her breasts, stomach, back, neck, and waist.” Torres alleges she began to cry and ask Phillips to stop as he rubbed his genitals on her and “masturbated and ejaculated on her.” She claims the behavior continued, and Phillips told her he loved her and intended to marry her and “blatantly disregarded her requests” that he stop.

      “Douglas Phillips, on the evenings he visited Ms. Torres, persuaded her that he was not doing anything wrong, that he intended to marry Ms. Torres, and that his wife would die shortly and enable him to marry Ms. Torres,” the complaint states. “He further repeatedly told Ms. Torres that he loved her, that he would take care of her, and that what they were doing was not wrong. He also stated that if it was wrong, it was completely her fault.”

      Continue reading

    ‘Jesus’ wife’ fragment (papyrus) is not a fake, scientists claim – Jesus Was Not Married

    ‘Jesus’ wife’ fragment is not a fake, scientists claim – Jesus Was Not Married

    Several years ago, when The DaVinci Code book, and later film based on the book, was released, there was a great big hulabaloo over it and its claims. The book claimed that Jesus snuck off to France, got married, and had a kid or something.

    Many conservative Christians were in an uproar that an author dared to suggest that Jesus was married and a literal father of biological children.

    It is true that Jesus never married and never had children. But, as I’ve written before, I notice the only time Christians care to defend adult virginity and singlehood is anytime Hollywood or a group of scholars suggest that perhaps Jesus was married and had sex.

    It’s bad enough that the present-day American group of Christians tends to forget that Jesus was single and a virgin – they have turned marriage and parenthood into idols – but it’s also infuriating when the seculars, the Non Christians, try to take away one of the main never-married and lifelong celibates in the Bible from also-never-married, lifelong celibate Christians.

    This story has been in the news lately (more links about this below):
    (Link): ‘Jesus’ wife’ fragment is not a fake, scientists claim

    If you’ve read anything about the Gnostic Gospels and similar issues, you know this stuff is bunk. Just because something is very old does not necessarily mean that the contents are trustworthy or accurate.

    Even within a few decades of Jesus’ death and resurrection, false teachers were already infiltrating the church and they made up bizarre, untrue things about Jesus or issues pertaining to soteriology, so no, one should not be surprised that in the 500, 600 years after the death of Christ, that scholars can and will find ancient papyri from that era stating all manner of things about Jesus, including the idea that he was married.

    I have some more comments below this following excerpt. Notice the part in bold face type, where it says Christians used to respect and revere virginity and celibacy to the point people wondered if married women and mothers were saved or could serve God. How times have changed.

    We have now reversed course in much of Christianity in America and other parts of the world: virginity (and celibacy) is not only (Link): not valued, but it is (Link): viewed as an impediment or inconvenience, (Link): virginity is attacked, even by (Link): famous Christians, all due to the fact that (Link): fornicators say their feelings get hurt when they hear Christians support virginity and sexual purity.

    I wonder about people – Christian and Non – who have this burning passion or desire to believe Jesus was married and a parent.

    I wonder if it’s due in part to the very deep bias contemporary cultures have against celibacy, adult virginity, and adult singleness? Does it make them feel more validated to believe Jesus was married with a kid because they are?

    Here are some links about the papyrus fragment.

    (Link): Study: ‘Jesus’ wife’ fragment not a fake


      Though she [Karen King, a Harvard Divinity School historian] dubbed the fragment, “The Gospel of Jesus’ Wife,” King said that the papyrus does not prove that Jesus was actually married – just that ancient Christians discussed the possibility.

      “This gospel fragment provides a reason to reconsider what we thought we knew by asking what the role claims of Jesus’s marital status played historically in early Christian controversies over marriage, celibacy, and family,” King said.

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    Christian Host Pat Robertson: Adultery Will Send You To Hell But Pre-Marital Sex No Biggie

    Christian Host Pat Robertson: Adultery Will Send You To Hell But Pre-Marital Sex No Biggie

    This post is referring to (Link): this video

    First, a few previous Pat Robertson related posts on this blog:

    I watched “The 700 Club” today.

    It is a TV show hosted by Christian personality Pat Robertson, where he spends part of the program answering viewer mail.

    Some lady wrote in with a question about pre-marital sex, in regards to the Bible character Sampson.

    The lady pointed out that the Bible mentions that Sampson had pre-martial sex (fornication) with a prostitute. “It seems out of line for a man dedicated to the lord,” she says. “Is this not breaking the Ten Commandments,” she asks?

    Robertson says pre-marital sex is a sin, but he says only adultery was condemned in the Ten Commandments.

    Robertson said God “allows such little sins, but he will not break covenant relationship” with a guy who commits fornication.

    Then Robertson responded to a question by a married guy who has an “open marriage” (marriage where both hubby and wife agree to cheat).

    Married Dude said he’s screwed around on his wife aplenty, but he feels a tad guilty because she has not screwed around on him (I’m paraphrasing his views).

    Married Dude wants to know if God will send him to hell for this screwing around with chicks not his wife.

    Robertson told the Open Marriage Guy that his arrangement is the same thing as adultery, that it is sin, but God will forgive him for this sin.

    But Robertson does say before this that yes, this guy can and will go to hell for adultery, especially if he does not “give it up”.

    I don’t think ol’ Pat is being consistent, here. He’s telling Guy A that “Sexual Sin X” can send him to Hell, but he tells Guy B that God will forgive him of “Sexual Sin Z.”

    Pat Robertson seemed tougher on “Adultery Guy” than on “Fornication Guy” (vis a vis Sampson).

    Robertson’s views seem to be that God is very forgiving of fornication but not so much adultery. Robertson seems to think adultery is worse or more sinful than pre-martial sex. At least that was my take on his commentary, which you can watch for yourself at the link at the top or in the embedded video below.

    You can watch the video on You Tube (you will have to sit through un-related bits about Islam, a person who came from a New Age family, a question about gender reversed Bible versions, etc, before Pat talks about the Open Marriage stuff, etc.).

    By the way, if this married couple agreed to an “open marriage,” that tells me that married sex is not some earth-shattering ordeal that keeps people from straying, as evangelical and other Christians often claim about married sex: obviously, married sex is not all that hot because so many married people sleep around on each other.

    Just seems to me that Robertson is a bit tougher on adultery than he is on pre-marital sex:

    Video URL:
    Related posts:

    (Link): Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread)

    (Link): No Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity – Christians Attack and Criticize Virginity Sexual Purity Celibacy / Virginity Sexual Purity Not An Idol

    (Link): Getting Married Does Not Necessarily Guarantee Frequent Hot Satisfying Sexy Sex / (also discussed): Gender and Sex Stereotypes (article)

    (Link): Getting Married Does Not Necessarily Guarantee Frequent Hot Satisfying Sexy Sex – Husband is Sexless for Eight Years (article)

    (Link): Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re: Celibacy

    (Link): Christian Early Marriage Position Advocates A Low View of Celibacy and Virginity and Adult Singleness – another example: Justin Deeter Blog about Early Marriage

    Southern Baptist’s New Sexist “Biblical Woman” Site – Attitudes in Total Face Palm of a Site One Reason Among Many This Unmarried and Childless Woman Is Saying Toodle-Oo to Christianity

    Southern Baptist’s New Sexist “Biblical Woman” Site – Attitudes in Total Face Palm of a Site One Reason Among Many This Unmarried and Childless Woman Is Saying Toodle-Oo to Christianity

    There are several reasons I am closer and closer to saying bye-bye to Christianity, but the continued insistence upon Southern Baptists, Neo Calvinists, and other Christian groups, on pushing sexism and codependency for women – under the headings of “gender complementarianism” or “biblical womanhood” – is just one more reason.

    I am now blogging about a new site by Southern Baptists about “Biblical womanhood.” (Link to that site, with screen captures from it, is farther below.)

    First, a preface: IT’S NOT JUST A WOMAN’S ISSUE

    If you are a male, an unmarried male, you need to be concerned about this pushing of gender complementarianism to women. It impacts you as well, oh yes it does.

    If you are a male, do not make the deadly mistake of thinking, “Aw, this is just about ladies, it is of no import for me, I am a dude!”

    No, no, you couldn’t be more wrong because 1. (Link): this page and 2. they equally oppress, pressure, shame, and hound males who do not live up to their narrowly defined list of rules of what constitutes “biblical manhood.”

    Just as gender complementarians limit and enslave women to following a very narrow set of 1950s- American- culturally influenced, un-biblical rules of what constitutes a godly woman (which often includes being married, submitting to a husband, and cranking out children), they do the same to men.

    For example, and depending on what type of breed of gender complementarian we are discussing, they usually define “biblical manhood” to mean ‘MAN WHO IS MARRIED TO A WOMAN AND FATHER TO BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN.’

    Some Christian biblical manhood advocates further tack on additional qualifiers of what constitutes “biblical manhood,” such as, “spiritual leader of wife,” “steadily employed with a big paycheck, so the wife can stay home all day,” and “manly man who drinks beer, belches loudly and often, and who watches cage fighting with great enthusiasm.”


    So, if you are a single male, or you have never been a daddy, and if you do not care for American stereotypical manly man pursuits (e.g., football, NASCAR, copious amounts of beer drinking) and you even prefer artistic pursuits, such as painting and opera, and…

    If you find yourself unable to support more than yourself on your pay check alone, you will be treated like a second-class citizen in most Baptist and Neo Calvinist churches.

    You will be deemed a failure for not being biblically mannish enough by a host of gender complementarians.

    I do find it telling that the Southern Baptists and other gender complementarians seem to expend more effort and time at talking about women’s roles, though.

    They seem to crank out more books, sites, and so on, to convince women that being submitted doormats is really honest- to- gosh biblical and not the least demeaning, than they do in cranking out as much material convincing men to be Biblical Tough Guys.

    Occasionally, they do, however – about a year ago, preacher Mark Driscoll and other preachers hosted an “Act Like Men” conference (link to that) which emphasized the idea that Christian men should be manly leader men, but it is my impression that conservative Christians are far more obsessed at keeping women in line more so than the males.

    Even so, if you are a single, childless, un- or under- employed, or non- football obsessed male, you have a stake in this topic as well.


    The Southern Baptist “biblical womanhood” site, as of this writing (Apr. 2014) is a white and pink combination.

    Yes, the web pages have a white background, but there is liberal usage of pink-colored fonts and headings all over the place.

    Even their “biblical womanhood” logo contains pink. Screen capture of their site’s mast head:

    Biblical Womanhood mast head screen shot

    Biblical Womanhood mast head screen shot

    Enough with pink already. I am a woman, but I have never liked pink.

    Historically, by the way, pink was for boys and blue was for girls. Read (Link): this and (Link): this for more on that.

    I am a woman. I have never liked pink. Even as a child, I did not find pink attractive, and it annoyed the piss out of me that companies and manufacturers went default pink on any product made for girls (and they would toss in rainbows and unicorns on the packaging, too. I’ve nothing against rainbows or unicorns, but I was never a horse or unicorn crazy girly girl, and I resented the notion, even at age ten, that I am SUPPOSED to like both just because I’m a girl.)

    Anyway, leave it to a Southern Baptist site that is pushing “gender complementarian” roles to use pink as one of the site’s main colors. They couldn’t break the stereotypes and go with muted teals, greys, or dark red with gold, or other unexpected colors for a woman’s site, oh no, gotta stick with pink because PINK = GIRLY FEMININE! *Sigh.*

    Where in the Bible does it say God defines the color pink as a biblical color for expressing womanhood? If that verse is in there, it must have escaped my attention, and yes, I have read the Bible all the way through.

    Leave it to a Christian biblical womanhood, or gender complementarian, site that is intending to dispel the notion that gender complementarianism is sexist by… are you ready for this? by… upholding sexist stereotypes! – they do, right there on their site, examples to follow in this post.

    Continue reading

    Long Time Married Lady Wants to Know If She Can Have Affair Because Husband Has Not Been Spending Much Time With Her – Another example of why Christians need to teach that sexual purity is for all not just young singles

    Long Time Married Lady Wants to Know If She Can Have Affair Because Husband Has Not Been Spending Much Time With Her – Another example of why Christians need to teach that sexual purity is for all not just young singles

    This lady wrote to this Christian TV show host because she is considering having an affair because her husband of 20+ years has been neglecting her lately:

    (Link): Video: Bring It On-Line: Absentee Husband (aired April 2, 2014)

    This woman’s letter demonstrates that several Christian stereotypes are incorrect:

      1. women (and specifically married women) are not interested in sex (the reality is that a lot of women want to have sex and enjoy sex)

      2. married people are more godly, mature, or sexually pure than adult singles (the reality is that married people are not better or more mature or godly than adult singles or childless/ childfree)

      3. married sex is so awesome and earth shattering it can keep marrieds from straying or from wanting to stray

    Related posts:

    (Link): Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread)

    (Link): Perverted Christian Married Couple Wants to “Wife Swap” (For Sex) With Other Christian Couple – Why Christians Need to Uphold Chastity / Celibacy For All People Even Married Couples Not Just Teens

    (Link): Why Christians Need to Uphold Lifelong Celibacy as an Option for All Instead of Merely Pressuring All to Marry – vis a vis Sexless Marriages, Counselors Who Tell Marrieds that Having Affairs Can Help their Marriages

    (Link): New ‘Christian Swingers’ Dating Site Offers Faithful Couples Chance to ‘Hookup’

    (Link): Christian Stereotypes About Female Sexuality : All Unmarried Women Are Supposedly Hyper Sexed Harlots – But All Married Ones are Supposedly Frigid or Totally Uninterested in Sex

    (Link): Letter to Advice Columnist: Husband Upset That Wife Masturbates – Marriage Doesn’t Guarantee Hot Regular Sex For Both or Either Partner, Contra Usual Christian Claims

    (Link): Groundbreaking News: Women Like Sex (part 1, 2) (articles)

    (Link): Married Women Engage in Sexual Sin – and most men in denial particularly Christian conservatives

    Christian World Vision Charity Okay and Dandy With Homosexual Marriage But Not Okay With Singles Fornicating

    Christian World Vision Charity Okay and Dandy With Homosexual Marriage But Not Okay With Singles Fornicating

    A few days ago, the news reported that charity World Vision, which is apparently Christian-based, announced that they would not prohibit the hiring of homosexual married couples to work for their organization. I have included a few links about this much farther below.

    World Vision later reversed this decision when evangelicals had a collective heart attack and threatened to pull funding.

    So your emergents, liberal Christians, and ex-Christians then went online to complain and cry about the reversal with chants of “Homophobes!” and so on.

    I find both sides of the homosexuality debate annoying, frankly.

    While I don’t support homosexuality (or homosexual marriage), I think too many evangelicals and other types of conservatives make much too much of it and should perhaps pipe down about it.

    On the other hand, the homosexual rights groups and their hetero fan club can be vicious, hate-filled, Gestapo, running about persecuting and harassing anyone who does not enthusiastically jump aboard the Big Gay Train. So both sides can go take a long walk off a short pier as far as I am concerned.

    Now, concerning this World Vision bruhaha, I don’t have a big opinion in and of itself.

    The one aspect of this that caught my attention is that initially, World Vision said that while they were (at the time) open to hiring homosexual married people, that they never the less still expected all their staff and employees who were single to remain abstinent.

    I assume they meant all singles, not just hetero singles, but who knows?

    I really tire of this. I really do. I understand that the Non Christian world will be fine and dandy with all manner of behavior the Bible condemns, such as homosexuality, but I am beyond fed up with a church or groups who claim to be Christian who hold double standards on sexuality.

    If you are a Christian who expects me to remain celibate because I am unmarried (I happen to be Hetero), then how can you then turn around and in effect give a stamp of approval to homosexuality vis a vis a nod of approval towards homosexual marriage? Every time Christians take a step towards basically embracing homosexuality, they are chipping away yet some more at any reasons as to why a HETERO adult should remain celibate.

    If you are going to let the homosexuals trollop around, you have no grounds upon which to tell hetero singles they must still refrain from sex.

    (Link): World Vision’s Gay Compromise


      by Brad Kramer

      World Vision, a global Christian anti-poverty nonprofit and one of America’s top ten largest charities, announced yesterday it has changed its policy and will now hire gay employees who are in legal same-sex marriages.

      The billion-dollar-a-year organization already requires employees to agree to an evangelical lifestyle code, including abstinence outside of marriage. In an interview with Christianity Today World Vision president Richard Stearns justified the policy shift as an acknowledgement of the diversity of opinions on homosexuality inside the American church.

      Stearns argued that World Vision has historically removed itself from contentious theological debates in favor of unity around their core focus on poverty. He also strongly urged supporters not to interpret the change in hiring policy as a salvo in war over gay marriage. With naiveté that boggles the imagination, Stearns hoped that the evangelical world, and in particular the organization’s large evangelical donor base, would also look past this “minor” policy shift and continue their support.

      The conservative evangelical blogosphere immediately exploded with condemnation. A who’s-who list of influential conservatives like Franklin Graham (son of Billy) and Russell Moore (political voice for the Southern Baptists) excommunicated World Vision for its capitulation to the dark side. Other notable figures made it clear that the entire Christian faith, and perhaps even Western Civilization itself, is threatened by World Vision and others who profess to be Christian and tolerate gay relationships. Many urged Christians to stop their monthly financial support of third-world children through World Vision (even if it means breaking off relationships between sponsor and child) and supporting alternative organizations who do not employ “unrepentant homosexuals.”

      World Vision is arguably the biggest and broadest “parachurch” organization in America, and thus has the unenviable role of trying to please everyone.

    (Link): World Vision to recognize gay marriage of employees

    (Link): Special Report World Vision Goes Liberal

    (Link): Famous Christian charity hiring married ‘gays’

      In an effort to encourage “unity” among its church partners, the highly influential evangelical Christian relief and development ministry World Vision has announced it will permit Christians in legal same-sex marriages to be employed.

      In an interview with Christianity Today, Richard Stearns, president of the U.S. branch, called it a “very narrow policy change” that should be regarded as “symbolic not of compromise but of [Christian] unity.”

      The U.S. branch, based in Federal Way, Wash., has about 1,100 workers. In 2012, Washington became one of the first states to legalize same-sex marriage by a popular vote.

      Stearns said the policy still will require employees to confine their sexual activities to within a marriage.

      “Changing the employee conduct policy to allow someone in a same-sex marriage who is a professed believer in Jesus Christ to work for us makes our policy more consistent with our practice on other divisive issues,” Stearns told the evangelical magazine. “It also allows us to treat all of our employees in the same way: abstinence outside of marriage, and fidelity within marriage.”

      The announcement drew strong criticism from other evangelical groups.

      “World Vision president Richards Stearns said they will leave the debate over same-sex ‘marriage’ to the churches where he acknowledges it is tearing them apart,” said Diane Gramley, president of the American Family Association of Pennsylvania. “However, the only reason there is any debate among churches on this issue is because those who accept ‘gay’ pastors or allow same-sex ‘marriage’ or blessings cannot read the plain language of Scripture.

      Gramley noted that in Matthew 19, Jesus “defines marriage as only between one man and one woman, and I Corinthians 6:9 includes homosexuals in the list of wrongdoers who will not share in the Kingdom of God.”

      “One cannot be a true Christian and be involved in a so-called same-sex marriage, thus World Vision has already wavered on its resolve that all employees be followers of Jesus Christ. Compromise and creating division are at the center of this decision,” she said.

      Worse, she said, the decision by World Vision to “empower” the homosexual movement will “continue misleading many who turn to the world, rather than the truth of the Gospel, for answers.”

    (Link): World Vision Reverses Decision to Hire Gays

    (Link): The apostasy of World Vision

    (Link): World Vision will hire those in same-sex marriages

    Continue reading

    Perverted Christian Married Couple Wants to “Wife Swap” (For Sex) With Other Christian Couple – Why Christians Need to Uphold Chastity / Celibacy For All People Even Married Couples Not Just Teens

    Perverted Christian Couple Wants to “Wife Swap” With Other Christian Couple

    Oh no, married Christian couples and preachers, stop, stop, stop insisting that marriage makes people more godly or mature and makes people immune from sexual sin, when we have nonsense like this (video):

    (Link): Question from Christian married viewer: My married Christian neighbors want to Wife Swap (for Sex) for the Night, How Do I Answer

    Bring It On-Line:

    Undefiled Marriage Bed

    [Dear Pat Robertson, Christian host of TV show The 700 Club],

    My wife and I have been happily married for seven years, but we have run into a problem.

    I know the Bible says that “the marriage bed be undefiled,” but my next door neighbors who are also Christians want to wife-swap for an evening.



    [Reply from Pat Robertson]



    Robertson’s reply for that is one of those rare times I agree with him: Robertson tells the guy who wrote in that is ADULTERY, and no, it’s not okay.

    You see, this is yet another example of why Christians need to teach chastity / celibacy is for ALL people, including married ones, not just single kids under the age of 25.

    Even married Christian people need to be reminded on occasion that sex is for MARRIAGE ONLY, as the Bible teaches, because some of these IDIOTS have affairs on their spouses, their counselors are telling them to spice up a boring sex life by taking a mistress, other perverted idiots believe “wife swapping” is acceptable behavior, etc etc.

    I just wrote of this kind of thing the other day:
    (Link): Elderly Widower Dude is a Slut Says Adult Daughter – Why Churches Need to Teach Celibacy Applies to Even Married People Not Just Under Age 25 Singles

    See too:
    (Link): Why Christians Need to Uphold Lifelong Celibacy as an Option for All Instead of Merely Pressuring All to Marry – vis a vis Sexless Marriages, Counselors Who Tell Marrieds that Having Affairs Can Help their Marriages

    You can view the segment here:

    Related post this blog:

    (Link): Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread)

    (Link): Christian Swingers: Body-building Christian Couple Advocates and Practices Wife Swapping – and the wife calls this lifestyle “pure”

    (Link): New ‘Christian Swingers’ Dating Site Offers Faithful Couples Chance to ‘Hookup’

    (Link): Jason the Christian’s Sexless Marriage – Christians promise hot regular steamy married sex but it isn’t true

    Quivering Family Duggar Girls Write Dating Book

    Quivering Family Duggar Girls Write Dating Book

    I’m sure these are nice girls, but they’ve had the wool pulled over their eyes with naive, twisted ideas about dating, sex, and marriage by their gender complementarian- to- partriarchal upbringing, so I don’t think young ladies should necessarily take their dating advice.

    I am obviously not opposed to them wanting to remain celibate until their wedding nights, but I believe I saw a blurb here or there where they said they don’t believe in kissing until marriage.

    That is certainly their right, if that is their free choice, but I feel such teachings and beliefs are drastic and can lead to sexual or relational hang ups and issues in a marriage.

    I just know that when or if news of this starts getting posted on atheist, ex Christian, liberal Christian, emergent, and post evangelical blogs, these young ladies will be mocked or ruthlessly insulted for wanting to stay virgins until marriage.

    The guy who wrote the page “Jessa Duggar Is 21, Never Been Kissed, And Avoids ‘Sensual Thoughts’” wrote,

      The Duggars are the archetypal Conservative Christian family.

    What makes him think that? Quiverfull is not archetypal of conservative Christians.

    I’m still sympathetic towards conservative Christians on some matters, and during all the years I was one myself, I never would’ve agreed with some of the Quiverfull teachings.

    There are some evangelicals and Baptists who regard Quivering as lunacy (eg, having boatloads of kids, the quasi Old Testament patriarchy practiced, no kissing before marriage, etc), an aberration, unbiblical, and a distortion or misapplication of biblical teachings and topics.

    At least the Duggar girls are trying to dispel the Christian and secular misunderstanding that celibate adults are asexual, uninterested in sex, and don’t want sex (see (Link): this previous post for more on that).

    Concerning: Where the one Duggar girl says in some of these interviews she still has desire for male companionship, though being celibate, and she thanks God for “being normal.”

    I’m not entirely clear on how she meant that comment, but I can imagine in the hours and days to follow, as the ex Christian, atheist, post evangelical, secular feminist, and liberal Christian blogs get ahold of that comment, they will assume she meant that as some kind of insult against asexuals or homosexuals – though I doubt that is how the girl meant it.

    That won’t stop her from getting flamed on such blogs, though. Sometimes some atheists, secular feminists, post evangelicals, liberal Christians, and the other groups invent things to get pissed at or offended by.

    They will choose to read her remark in the worst possible way and drag her over the coals for it. I will be surprised if that does not happen.

    I am also expecting the post evangelical, secular feminist, and other such blogs to get into (Link): Celibate and Virgin Shaming mode, tell us how it’s so ignorant for these young ladies to remain virgins until marriage, since they need to make sure their boyfriends are “sexually compatible” with them.

    One of the Duggar girls says she and her sisters avoid sexual temptation by staying away from men entirely, which is not a good solution. I have blogged on that many times before.

    For Christians to teach other Christians to avoid one gender entirely sets individuals up for sexual hang ups and relationship problems later in life, and it also keeps gender stereotypes afloat (such as, all men are horny horn dog potential rapists, all married women are frigid, all single women are horny Jezebels who screw around).

    These stereotypes actually keep single men and women apart, hinders them from marrying, and has other negative ramifications.

    Though I find it interesting you have a group of females here advocating that women should stay away from men. Usually, Christian males teach in their literature, blogs, or sermons, that single and married men say away from women to avoid sexual temptation.

    (Link): Jessa Duggar and her sisters unveil Christian dating rules in new book

      The Duggar sisters say in their new book that in spite of their Christian upbringing they still have “have a natural physical desire toward men.”

      March. 11 (UPI) — The Duggar sisters opened up about their home’s Christian rules when it comes to dating in their new book Growing Up Duggar: It’s All About Relationships.

      “It’s easy to put yourself into physical and moral danger and give into those emotions or sensual thoughts that promise pleasant, but only temporary, fulfillment,” the women reportedly say in the book, according to the Daily Mail.

      They add that avoiding men altogether is the easiest way to avoid sin.

      “By censoring our thoughts through the filter of God’s word, we will be able to recant any wrong thoughts or temptations that try to sneak in,” they say.

      In spite of their Christian upbringing the sisters explained that they still “have a natural physical desire toward men” and that they “thank God for making us normal.”

      The third Duggar daughter, Jessa, announced in September 2013 that she was dating fellow churchgoer Ben Seewald. Michelle Duggar said at the time that Jessa was allowed to “side hug” her boyfriend after they “were officially courting.”

    (Link): Jessa Duggar Is 21, Never Been Kissed, And Avoids ‘Sensual Thoughts’

      Jessa Duggar has co-authored a new book, together with three of her sisters, which explains their somewhat unusual outlook on life in general — and sex in particular.

      Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “lack of sex,” since they reveal in the book Growing up Duggar that they avoid spending time with men in case they sin and have sex before marriage.

      Continue reading

    Anti Virginity Christian Blogger Tim Challies Now Writes: ’31 Days of Purity: My Identity’ – What?

    Anti Virginity Christian Blogger Tim Challies Now Writes: ’31 Days of Purity: My Identity’ – What?

    This is rich. I just learned about a new Tim Challies post via Twitter, a post where he is starting a new blog series where he discusses being sexually pure for 31 days.

    I left this response below Challies’ post, the second one in the series (link to that post on the Challies blog page):

      LOL, is this a joke? Challies is the same guy who wrote an anti virginity editorial a few months ago, where he declared that “even fornicators are virgins now.” Which totally makes a mockery out of adults such as myself, who are literal virgins past the age of 40.

      When you downgrade the importance of virginity to soothe the injured feelings of fornicators, who often claim these days of feeling ashamed or guilty when they hear sermons or read blogs esteeming sexual purity and virginity, you are inadvertently insulting adult Christians who are still virgins into their adulthoods.

    First, some background to get you up to speed:

    So, Challies is one of those Christians who runs around wanting Christians to downplay the concepts of -and biblical teachings concerning- virginity and sexual purity, because a lot of Christians today – especially emergents, ex-Christians, and post evangelicals – are running around on their blogs saying how horrible sexual purity teachings make them feel, because they fornicated in their teens or early twenties.

    Such women want, and expect, the entire body of Christ to ignore, and stop talking about, sexual sin. They want Christians to stop teaching that sex prior to marriage is sinful.

    Next thing you know, well-known emergent, liberal, and post-evangelical, feminist Christians bloggers took up the banner of this cause, going on and on about how teaching about virginity and denouncing pre-marital sex was harmful to women and should be stopped. Not too many months after, more conservative Christians – such as Tim Challies, Al Mohler, and others – took up that banner too.

    Oh gosh golly, by writing this,
    (Link): 31 Days of Purity: My Identity by Tim Challies,
    isn’t Tim concerned that he may hurt and shame the feelings of men who have not been sexually pure?

    And, if, based on Challies previous posts, all of us are virgins now, even the fornicators, what on earth possible difference does it make if a man engages in pre-marital sex (or views pornography), since, when he does, according to Challies, that man can just consider himself a virgin?

    Here are a few excepts from
    (Link): 31 Days of Purity: My Identity by Tim Challies

      March 02, 2014
      by Tim Challies

      Through the month of March, I am inviting you to 31 Days of Purity—thirty-one days of thinking about and praying for sexual purity. Each day features a short passage of Scripture, a reflection on that passage, and a brief prayer. Here is day two:

      [snip (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) which mentions that fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God, etc]

      As men we face the temptation to gain our deepest identity from our sexuality. For some, identity is found in sexual prowess while for others it is defined by sexual failures. The Corinthians, like us, suffered from identity confusion.

      … [Challies then goes on to explain 1 Corinthians 6:9-11]

      …. What Now? Consider joining our 31 Days of Purity Facebook group. It is optional, but you will find it a good place to go for discussion and encouragement. (Note: that Facebook group is for men only; here is one for Women Supporting Men)

    I never prayed about sexual purity. I’m not sure if Challies is suggesting that men pray and ask God to keep them from caving in to sexual temptation.

    You know how I resisted the urge to cave in and have pre-marital sex, and I’m still a virgin in my 40s (and I was engaged for a few years; I had the opportunity to have sex)? Here’s how: I made a choice not to have pre-marital sex, and I utilized self-discipline. That was all there was to it. I did not pray and ask God to keep me from sexually straying.

    I’m not necessarily saying it’s wrong for a person to pray and ask God for help in this matter, only I don’t believe it’s necessary. I remained a virgin this long without praying about it.

    By the way, if you are thinking that I have no sex drive or a low libido, you are incorrect about that.

    If you assume God “gifted me” with celibacy, you are incorrect. God does not gift anyone with celibacy, or give them supernatural abilities to resist sex – for more information on that, please see posts such as…

    Anyway, as the Challies post I am discussing in my post here is only “day two” of Challies 31 day blog series, there will be plenty more blog posts about sexual purity by Challies in the future.

    I am just gob smacked. How Christians so often speak out of both sides of their mouth on these topics. They often claim to support sexual purity, celibacy, and virginity until marriage, but they don’t.

    When they start writing op eds or blogs encouraging fornicators, they tend to downplay the importance of sexual purity and make sexual sin sound like it’s not a big deal at all. Take Challies’ earlier comment about fornicators in his previous post, where he wrote “we are all virgins now [even fornicators].”

    To write that is to make the word “virgin” nonsensical. The word “virgin” loses its meaning when Christians redefine it to mean “fornicators included,” or to say it can and does refer to people who have fornicated previously but who are currently celibate (ie, “born again virgins” or “secondary virgins” or “spiritual virgins.”)

    What they don’t seem to comprehend is that such lack of support for honest to God virginity – no penis has been in my vagina ever, and I am over age 40 – has in part caused me to give up on this.

    I have changed my thinking and intend on having pre-marital sex when I resume dating.

    I mean, really, what could Challies’ comeback be to that? He has no comeback, no response.

    Challies could say, “Well, um, er, the Bible forbids pre-marital sex.” Well no kidding!

    But does this not take us back to first base: I’ve been saying so all along, that God frowns on pre-marital sex and the Bible says pre-marital sex is a sin, but every time I do so, a guy like you, Challies, comes along and says, “But even if you have pre-marital sex and are a fornicator, you too are a virgin now; Jesus forgives you of your sexual sin, so let it go.”

    With a rationale like that, I don’t see much of a downside or negative penalty to fornicating, unless you happen to hook up with an HIV- infected preacher who doesn’t tell you he’s HIV- infected (like this).
    Related posts, this blog:

    (Link): No, Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity (they attack both concepts)

    (Link): Christians Who Attack Virginity Celibacy and Sexual Purity – and specifically Russell D. Moore and James M. Kushiner

    (Link): Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

    (Link): The Christian and Non Christian Phenomenon of Virgin Shaming and Celibate Shaming

    (Link): Cheating Married Christian Women and Lessons I Take Away – and Being a Virgin Does Not Guarantee God will Send You a Spouse

    (Link): Christians Not Only Accept Pre Marital Sex Among Adults But Are Also Now Accepting “Shacking Up” as The New Norm

    (Link): Joshua Rogers of Boundless / Focus on the Family Attacks Biblical Teaching of Virginity Until Marriage

    (Link): Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re: Celibacy

    (Link): Christian TV Show Host Pat Robertson Disrespects Virginity – Says Pre-Marital Sex Is “Not A Bad Thing”

    (Link): Christian TV Host Pat Robertson says on Christian TV show that ‘Virginity Has Nothing To Do With Marriage’ and Says (Paraphrasing) ‘Virginity Was Fine For Mary But Not Applicable For Any Other Christians’

    Is Jesus Too Sexy? Too Sexy for His Hat, Too Sexy for His Shirt? And What About Salome in Movies? / Re: Actor Diogo Morgado and Depictions of Jesus in Movies – Including Son of God

    Is Jesus Too Sexy? Too Sexy for His Hat, Too Sexy for His Shirt? And What About Salome in Movies?

    Some Christians think that the actor, Diogo Morgado, who plays Jesus in the movie “Son of God” is too smokin’ hot and that this will distract audiences from the movie itself.

    Some of them apparently caught on to the fact that females find the man attractive after a female journalist interviewed the actor in the past couple of weeks and kept gushing about what a sexy sex pot he is. One wonders, had this female journalist not harped on the actor’s looks, would Christian and Fighting for the Faith pod cast host Chris Rosebrough have noticed, or would preacher and Christian blogger Wade Burleson have noticed?

    Usually (as I’ve blogged about a MILLION times before) males, especially Christian males, live in fairy tale land where they believe only men are “visually oriented” and only men like sex and want sex. Rarely is female libido and the female gaze acknowledged or even assumed to exist.

    (Link): Audio: Fighting for the Faith: Vidal Sassoon Jesus is an International Sex Symbol? (Feb 24, 2014)

    (Link): The Ugly Side of the Son of God by Wade Burleson


      by Wade Burleson

      Isaiah the prophet says Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God was physically unattractive. There is no mistake in what the inspired prophet meant when he described the physical looks of the Son of God. Listen to the prophet’s words:

      “…like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.” (Isaiah 53:2).

      The new Hollywood motion picture entitled Son of God is definitely not faithful to the Scriptures in the physical presentation of the Son of God. Jesus on the screen looks like a cross between Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. Watching “Son of God” in a theater might make young ladies wish to “Kiss the Son” (Psalm 12:2) physically, rather than to embrace Him in faith. In our literal society, where the visual visceral always seems to trump eternal realities, one might walk away from the move Son of God being more enraptured with the good looks of Jesus than the good news of Jesus’ Kingdom.

    How often, I wonder, do male Christian pundits worry that the actresses who played Salome in various screen adaptations of the life of Jesus were too sexy and come hither?



    The Salome character, in her thick eye liner, harem costume, and sexy dance routine, has been in two or three of the TV or movie productions about Jesus Christ, including the 1970s mini-series “Jesus of Nazareth,” (directed by Zeffirelli) and 1961’s King of Kings, and I don’t ever recall a Christian male writing concerns about the Salome character being too attractive. Why is that?

    (Link): IMDB: Son of God

    (Link): #HotJesus: Must He be sexy?

    (Link): Diogo Morgado Inspires Hot Jesus Hashtag; Actor Playing ‘Son Of God’, May Be Too Sexy

      Have depictions of Jesus gotten too sexy over the years?

      The actor playing Jesus in the new ‘Son of God’ movie has inspired the #HotJesus hashtag that is taking Twitter by storm and causing some to wonder: Why does Jesus have to be sexy?

      In a witty op-ed, CNN anchor Carol Costello raised the issue of why a divine but still incarnate historical figure must be portrayed as handsome, buff or “physically perfect.”

      We actually don’t know what Jesus looked like. We do know he was a carpenter, so perhaps Jesus was buff. But, I don’t think when the Biblical Nathaniel asked, “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” and Phillip answered, “Come and see,” they were talking about Jesus’ beautiful face or chiseled abs.

    (Link): CNN’s Carol Costello Has a Problem with ‘Sexy’ Jesus

    (Link): CNN’s Carol Costello Skeezed Out By Sexy Jesus In ‘Son Of God’ (Video)

      “’Son of God’ is generating a lot of heat because Jesus is, um, so sexy!” Costello exclaimed. “He looks like Brad Pitt… The question for me became must Jesus be sexy too?”

    (Link): Jesus: I’m too sexy for my cross

    (Link): Diogo Morgado Puts the Carnal in Incarnate, But Was Jesus Really A Babe?

      Hollywood gives the son of god chiseled cheekbones and buns of steel. But what if—based on anthropological study of first-century Galilean males—Jesus had the build of a teenage girl?

    Below the Right Said Fred video below, see some more links about how Christians – yes Christians – sometimes sexualize Jesus Christ and friendship and infant girls.

    Right Said Fred singing “Too Sexy”

    Related posts this blog:

    (Link): The Sexualization of God and Jesus

    (Link): Ever Notice That Christians Don’t Care About or Value Singleness, Unless Jesus Christ’s Singleness and Celibacy is Doubted or Called Into Question by Scholars?

    (Link): Atlantic: “The case for abandoning the myth that ‘women aren’t visual.’”

    (Link): Article: My Savior My Spouse? – Is God or Jesus Your Husband Isaiah 54:5

    (Link): Dating Jesus / Oh No I’m Single! (videos) – for single unmarried Christians

    (Link): Superman, Man Candy -and- Christian Women Are Visual And Enjoy Looking At Built, Hot, Sexy Men

    (Link): Christians Who Sexualize Female Infants and Who Have Wacko, Weird, Unbiblical Gender Role Views They Actually Believe are Biblical / Re Botkins

    (Link): Christian Stereotypes About Female Sexuality : All Unmarried Women Are Supposedly Hyper Sexed Harlots – But All Married Ones are Supposedly Frigid or Totally Uninterested in Sex

    (Link): Self Professing Christian Guy, Closeted Homosexual, Apparently Killed His Wife (or had her killed) – Also: Christian Group IHOP Sexualizes Jesus Christ and God

    (Link): Researchers measure increasing sexualization of images in magazines

    (Link): Topics: Friendship is Possible / Sexualization By Culture Of All Relationships

    (Link): How the Sexual Revolution Ruined Friendship – Also: If Christians Truly Believed in Celibacy and Virginity, they would stop adhering to certain sexual and gender stereotypes that work against both

    A Critique of – 10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry by J. Lee Grady / And on Christians Marrying Non Christians -and- Unrealistic, Too Rigid Spouse Selection Lists by Christians

    A Critique of – 10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry by J. Lee Grady / And on Christians Marrying Non Christians -and- Unrealistic, Too Rigid Spouse Selection Lists by Christians

    There are aspects of this editorial by Grady I agree with, some I do not.

    My comments are below the excepts.

    (Link): 10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry


      by J. Lee Grady

    My wife and I raised four daughters — without shotguns in the house! — and three of them have already married. We love our sons-in-law, and it’s obvious God handpicked each of them to match our daughters’ temperaments and personality.

    It's Magical

    It’s Magical

    I have always believed God is in the matchmaking business. If He can do it for my daughters, He can do it for you.

    …. Today I have several single female friends who would very much like to find the right guy.

    Some tell me the pickings are slim at their church, so they have ventured into the world of online dating. Others have thrown up their hands in despair, wondering if there are any decent Christian guys left anywhere.

    They’ve begun to wonder if they should lower their standards in order to find a mate. My advice stands: Don’t settle for less than God’s best. Too many Christian women today have ended up with an Ishmael because impatience pushed them into an unhappy marriage.

    Please take my fatherly advice: You are much better off single than with the wrong guy!

    Speaking of “wrong guys,” here are the top 10 men you should avoid when looking for a husband:

    1. The unbeliever. Please write 2 Corinthians 6:14 on a Post-it note and tack it on your computer at work. It says, “Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?” (NASB).

    This is not an outdated religious rule. It is the Word of God for you today. Don’t allow a man’s charm, looks or financial success (or his willingness to go to church with you) push you to compromise what you know is right. “Missionary dating” is never a wise strategy. If the guy is not a born-again Christian, scratch him off your list. He’s not right for you. I’ve yet to meet a Christian woman who didn’t regret marrying an unbeliever.

    He goes on to list more Christian men he thinks a Christian single should not marry, including: the liar, the playboy, the dead beat, the control freak, the man child, the narcissist, the bum – and a few others.

    I’m not even sure where to start with this.

    First, let me say I enjoyed one or two points he made, and I agree with them, such as point #10,

    10. The control freak.

    Some Christian guys today believe marriage is about male superiority. They may quote Scripture and sound super-spiritual, but behind the façade of husbandly authority is deep insecurity and pride that can morph into spiritual abuse.

    First Peter 3:7 commands husbands to treat their wives as equals. If the man you are dating talks down to you, makes demeaning comments about women or seems to squelch your spiritual gifts, back away now. He is on a power trip. Women who marry religious control freaks often end up in a nightmare of depression.

    I applaud him on point #10 there, good job on point 10! Woo!

    Point #9 (about avoiding the “man-child” category of adult males) isn’t altogether a bad point, either (I was engaged to a quasi man-child, and no, I did not enjoy it), but that point taken too far, or if over-emphasized, and we are getting into Mark Driscoll territory (click here for more on that), and lots of younger males in particular are deeply insulted by some of Driscoll’s views about men.

    On the one hand, the guy who wrote this, Grady, assumes God will send you (you being a single Christian woman who wants to get married) the Christian man o’ your dreams.

    If this is so, why does Grady make a long list telling single women not to marry a drug addict, bum, control freak, liar, etc?

    If it were true that God just blessed single females with a “dream boat” of a Christian spouse, if they just trust God and pray about it, there would be no need for a woman to use her discernment and weed out the pigs, dogs, and liars from the Prince Charmings, and to have these lists of what sort of men to avoid marrying in the first place, now would there?

    If you have bothered to read any other posts at this blog before, you know my deal.

    But if you’re new, here’s a recap:

    I’m over 40 years of age, raised a Christian, dreamed of being married, still single in my 40s, bought into evangelical/Baptist propaganda from my youth forwards that if I only trusted God for a spouse, stayed sexually pure, prayed, and waited, that God would deliver “Mr. Christian Right” to my front door. (I even tried dating sites, went to churches, volunteered at soup kitchens, etc., still no spouse.)

    Despite all my waiting, praying, staying a virgin into adulthood, attending church, using dating sites, volunteering at charities, ‘looking to the kingdom first,’ and having faith, and all the other twaddle Christians tell you that you must do to earn or obtain a spouse – God never did send me a spouse.

    And did I mention the part where I’m in my 40s now? It’s more than a bit ridiculous to keep telling women at my age to “keep praying, trusting” and all the usual advice these 50- year- old, married men issue to 15 or 23 year old single women.

    That is one reason I cringe when I see Christians write comments such as these, by J. Lee Grady, who wrote on the page I excerpted above:

      …and it’s obvious God handpicked each of them [the husbands] to match our daughters’ temperaments and personality.

    I have always believed God is in the matchmaking business. If He can do it for my daughters, He can do it for you.

    Buddy, I don’t know how to tell you this… but God did not “hand pick” husbands for your daughters.

    Your daughters simply dated around until they found a man they felt compatible with, and they got lucky. And who knows if all the marriages of all three of your daughters will last?

    Maybe one or more of your daughters will divorce in the future. If one of them divorces, how will you stick to the belief that God “hand picked” their spouse for them?

    Why would God “hand pick” a man for a woman only for their marriage to fall apart years later? If God did the spouse choosing, don’t you think there would be little to no divorce, rather than the 40 – 60% divorce rate among Christians we do have these days?

    You have plenty of other single Christian women out there that prayed and waited, and God did not “hand pick” any husbands for them.

    Yes, 2 Corinthians 6:14 is, contrary to what Grady states, an outdated biblical rule, especially in the United States of America, where studies I read say there are about three un-married, adult Christian women for every one un-married, adult Christian man.

    That means about two out of three Christian women who are single who desire marriage (assuming they all want to marry) will be unable to marry a Christian man, because there are not enough Christian men for the ladies to marry.

    The “be equally yoked” (or in the negative, “do not be unequally yoked”) is only serving to keep single Christian women who desire marriage indefinitely single – it sets up an unrealistic, unnecessary hurdle they must contend with in mate selection and in getting to the altar.

    Not only that, but some Christians are not even clear on what “being equally yoked” really means. For example, some gender complementarians would tell single Christian women it is not enough for her to marry a Christian man, oh no, but the man she marries must also be one she feels she can “submit to,” or one who can be her “spiritual leader” or “spiritual head.”

    Some preachers, such as Seattle’s Mark Driscoll, have also told women, or implied or alluded, to only marry a guy who has his own car and a steady job, on top of marrying only a Christian guy.

    Driscoll also stated that Christian single women should NOT marry a Pro-Choice man, see this link:

    (Link): Obnoxious and Sexist Preacher Mark Driscoll Wants Christian Singles to Stay Single Indefinitely – And Even Though Unwanted, Prolonged Singleness has Been a Huge Issue For Christian Singles for A Couple Decades Now – Driscoll: ‘Christians should not marry pro choicers’

    Although I do not agree with Regenerus (Christian college professor and author) on everything, he rightly pointed out over a year ago in an article that Christians are un-biblical to keep adding more and more criteria on Christian mate selection lists that they expect Christian single females to adhere to, because such criteria are keeping too many women single too long.

    Here are some of Regenerus’ remarks from that article:

      Genuine interfaith marriage is a challenge I don’t recommend. But as marriage has shifted in purpose over time, many Christians have added layers of meaning onto Paul’s wise command.

    “Unequally yoked” has evolved into a graded criterion for an optimal mate rather than a simple test for an acceptable one. This is a problem. Why? Spiritual maturity is not equally distributed among men and women in the peak marrying years. Quality survey data reveal only two serious, churchgoing evangelical men for every three comparable women.

    Thus, one out of every three evangelical women is not in a position to marry a man who’s her “spiritual equal,” let alone “head.”

    This elevated standard now translates — for women, at least — to something like this: “Find that uncommon man who is your spiritual equal or leader, not to mention kind, virtuous, industrious, employed, and, if possible, handsome, and then figure out how to make him want to marry you.”

    A tall order it is.

    As a result of the increasing “failure to launch,” evangelicals find themselves saying lots of nice things about the benefits of singleness (which certainly do exist), but seem unwilling to move their boundary stones for marriage. Except that they have moved them, away from acceptability and toward ideals. It’s not a surprising move, since marriage is far more voluntary and economically unnecessary for women (and men) today than it was as recently as 50 years ago.

    (Link): source 1 (Link): source 2

    Basically, not only are Christian singles told to hold out for ONLY another Christian single, but if they are female, and depending on which type of church or denomination they belong to, they are also told they can only marry a Christian man IF he meets one or more of the following criteria:

        1. she can picture herself submitting to him;
        2. he is more spiritually mature than her;
        3. (if in an IFB church), he must be King James Version Only;

    4. (if in a Neo Calvinist church), he must be a Calvinist

    You might as well also add other, too narrow, picky, and ridiculous requirements for a spouse, such as, in addition to being a Christian single man (which are very rare to start with), the man in question must :

      1. the man must have one blue eye and one green eye;

    2. the man must own a pet llama named Henry;

    3. the man must have a hobby of collecting Mego Star Trek figures;

    4. the man must have the habit of picking all blue M&M candies out from every package of M&M candy he opens

    5. the man’s favorite day of the week must be Tuesday;

    6. The man’s middle name must start with the letter “Q”

    The longer one makes a “list of criteria for a martial partner” the smaller the pool of eligible mates one has to choose from.

    I really do not think most Christians appreciate this fact – and it’s common sense, but it sails right over the heads of most married Christians who dole out this useless advice to singles.

    Grady says,

      I’ve yet to meet a Christian woman who didn’t regret marrying an unbeliever.

    And I’ve seen a fair share of online testimonies by Christian women who did marry a Non Christian and have no regrets about it. They say they have happy marriages and are doing just fine.

    I wonder if part of the stubborn insistence by Christians that single Christian women should break up with a Non-Christian man (even if they are in love with him), and “trust God” to send them a Christian guy later on, is a denial that there are simply not enough Christian men for Christian ladies to marry.

    Christian apologist William Craig Lane unfortunately seems to assume if a Christian single woman is dating a Non-Christian man, that if she breaks up with the guy, that in his good time, God will send her, or reward her with, a Christian husband – but this is not true (see this page, off site: (Link): Marrying a Non Christian, reply by William Lane Craig).

    A lot of Christian women find themselves waiting, waiting, waiting for a Christian spouse, just as Lane Craig and others advise – and die never having married.

    And bear in mind that Craig admits in that answer on that page that he’s been married to a Christian women for 30 or whatever years – I notice that frequently when Christians who tell hurting, lonely singles to stay single while “waiting on God for a spouse,” they are themselves MARRIED and have BEEN MARRIED FOR DECADES.

    How EASY it is for YOU, married guy of 30 years, to tell 25, 35, 45 year old women who WANT marriage, but who are SINGLE, to keep tossing out suitable men, one after the other, just because they are not Christian.

    Give me a break. This is nothing but a cruel, devious trick that is unnecessarily keeping droves of single Christian women single indefinitely, or well into their 40s and older.

    Over a year ago, I found a long thread on a Christian forum where many Christians who had married atheists and other types of Non Christians talked about their marriage experiences, and many of the Christian women said their marriages to their unbelieving spouses were fine.

    There was no abuse, their unbelieving spouses did not cheat on them, respected their faith, and so forth. If I can find that discussion I will link to it. I can’t remember the name of the forum I found those testimonies on.

    If you google it, you can of course find a ton of lay-persons on the internet claiming that a Christian to a Non Christian marriage will end in failure and heartbreak – but again, I’ve come across plenty of positive testimonies about it as well. I don’t think Christian to Non-Christian marriage is necessarily doomed to failure.

    I preface the link, which is much farther below to an atheist blog page, by saying this: I notice that often times atheists take the “be not yoked” teaching as a personal slam against atheists, which it’s not intended to be, not from the Christian view.

    When Christians talk about being married to only other Christians, they are not suggesting that atheists are evil trash and not good enough for Christian companionship.

    I mean, look it, you have a lot of Christians who fall in love with a person who is an atheist (or agnostic), and then they run to a preacher asking, “Is it a sin for me, a Christian to marry this atheist? I’d really like to marry him/her, but he/she is an unbeliever, and I don’t know what to do.”

    In other words, if all Christians every where thought of all atheists as being evil idiot dirt balls, you would not see this question raised to start with, because you would not have Christians dating and falling in love with atheists (and other types of Non-Christians).

    The “be not yoked” teaching is more pro-Christian and supported out of concern for the Christian’s spiritual well being, and is not “anti atheist.”

    The teaching is mainly spoken out of concern that a Christian who marries a non-believer might have his or her faith compromised, or the atheist spouse may act as an obstacle to the believing spouse serving God, attending church, and so forth.

    It’s a pro-Christian teaching, not anti-atheist, but a lot of atheists choose to misinterpret it in that way. Like the guy on this page below does – the guy who runs the “Friendly Atheist” blog.

    I sometimes visit the Friendly Atheist’s blog and even agree with him at times on some subjects, but not totally on the “be not yoked” teaching, where he takes the teaching as an intentional insult against atheists.

    I do, however, agree with some of this other views on the issue, which you can read about here:

    (Link): Friendly Atheist blog: Can Atheists Marry Christians… and Make It Last?, by Hemant Mehta

    That page even has quotes from a friend of Mehta (the atheist blogger guy) who is a Christian, Alise Wright, who is married to an atheist. He gets her take on the situation. Here is one quote by Alise Wright on his page:

      Due to our differences in faith, my husband [who is an atheist] and I [who am a Christian] have had to work on our ability to communicate a bit more.

    It requires us to find the areas where our common ethos meet and build on that. It requires us to be more generous and more forgiving with one another because we are determined not to be another statistic in the broken marriage category. Interfaith marriages are happening.

    Rather than simply saying, “Don’t do that,” the Church needs to look for ways to encourage couples who are in these marriages instead of leaving them to their own devices.

    If we truly want to recognize marriage as something beautiful and sacred, then we need to provide tools to help those who have married someone outside of the Christian faith find that in their spouse and in their marriage. I agree with those sentiments above.

    Grady ends his editorial, “10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry,” by saying,

      Your smartest decision in life is to wait for a man who is sold out to Jesus.

    Er, no. I’m in my early 40s and still not married. You are, when you get down to it, asking me to stay single until I die. No thank you.

    God has done didley squat NOTHING up to this point to send me a spouse, so I have to take matters into my own hands, which means getting back on to the dating horse once more, but this time, when I do, I will not be eliminating Non-Christians from the pool of candidates.

    I leave you with this image, and a few comments below it:

    Single Christian Woman Waiting for the Perfect Christian Mr. Right Christians Told Her God Would Send Her

    Single Christian Woman Waiting for the Perfect Christian Mr. Right Christians Told Her God Would Send Her

    By the way, what of the ten men on that list that Grady names, the liar, bum, etc.? Is Grady saying such men, if they desire marriage, will never, ever get a spouse?

    Is he saying God will deny such males spouses, and they are doomed to die alone and single?

    Does Grady believe such men will have to clean up their acts before God will allow them a spouse?

    I hate to break it to Grady, but I have a bazillion examples on my blog of Christian men who got married who turned out to be drug addicts, rapists, burglars, serial rapist, porn addicts, pedophiles, and cheaters.

    You can read some of those examples here:

    (Link): Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread)

    Obviously, God does not expect a person to “clean up” his act before allowing him (or her) to marry.

    Of course, I doubt many women would want to marry a man who is a liar, cheat, bum, or man-child, so it may behoove such men to clean themselves up on those grounds, but I don’t see any evidence that God prohibits jerks, idiots, and loons from marrying; quite the contrary, my blog has many examples of jerks, abusers, idiots and loons who got Christian spouses in spite of all their sins, defects, and character flaws.


    EDIT. I do not know who originally drew the skeleton lady sitting on a bench drawing you see above. I’ve seen it around the internet forever. I would love to give the original creator credit, but I have no idea who made it. I changed it a little to add text to it.
    Edit, March 22, 2014

    This guy (Steve Strang) apparently feels Grady’s editorial is awesome – it’s not.

    One reason Grady’s piece took off like wildfire on social media is because Grady’s article was copied to liberal Christian groups and sites who thought it was awful. That is one reason why a lot of people shared it on Facebook and tweeted it all over town – to ridicule it and criticize it, not laud and praise it.

    (Link): Why Did Millions of Christian Women Share This Article? by Steve Strang

    Though I do agree in part with Deb, who left this remark on the Charisma News site – she is right that churches ignore adult single celibates and instead opine about the already-married:

    by Deb

      That article went viral because it spoke to a need that’s not being met in the church. Men & women in the church need honest, direct guidance in navigating the waters of single life.

      The church on the whole, including those singles, would rather put on a front that everyone is celibate and reading the Bible when they go on a date.

      Those “dating waters” are treacherous! There are sharks and snakes everywhere! I only spent about two years in those waters–I divorced a “serial adulterer” after over 30 years– but I got an eye-opening education in those two years and at times nearly drowned.

      I think I met every man listed in J. Lee Grady’s article. He is so on-point! I could write a book on being a Christian single in today’s world!

      Just by observing the other singles, I realized I shouldn’t date men in church.

      From what I saw, the men dated outside the church because they wanted to have sex but not have to face the woman in church on Sunday.

      Churches need singles groups that tackle the issues of singleness frankly instead of turning a blind eye to the fact that their singles are having sex, getting pregnant, getting diseases and dealing with all manner of sexual perversion while still being active members of the church.

      This environment is creating people with a seared conscience.

      We must bring righteousness and holiness back into the church, along with a strong dose of truth and honesty. Truthfully, that must start with our leaders’ behavior.

      Being single and celibate in today’s society is very difficult. They need a strong support group and strategies to succeed at being single and dating.

      For me, when I was ready to get married again, I stopped “dating”. I stopped communicating with the men in whom I was interested. I prayed for God to show me to my future husband….I prayed that my husband would find me.

      He did <3

    My tweet to Strang:

    A Critique of – 10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry by J. Lee Grady @sstrang
    Related posts this blog:

    (Link): Typical Incorrect Conservative Christian Assumption: If you want marriage bad enough, Mr. Right will magically appear

    (Link): American Christian Divorce Rates Vs Atheists and Other Groups – throws a pall over Christian Fairy Tale Teachings about Marriage

    (Link): Study: Conservative Protestants’ Christians divorce rates spread to their red state neighbors

    (Link): 21 Year old, Devout Christian and Student, Children’s Minister Charged With Murdering Fiancée He Was to Wed in August; Made It Look Like Suicide – Christian Single Women: Another Example of Why You Should Abandon the “Be Equally Yoked” Teaching

    (Link): Being Equally Yoked: Christian Columnist Dan Delzell Striving to Keep Christian Singles Single Forever

    (Link): Married Christian Woman Sexually Preys on Kids At Phillips’ Family-Worshipping Church – Married People Not More Godly Than Singles – Married Sex Must Not Be As Hot As Christians Teach

    (Link): More Singles Commentary by Mark Driscoll (“Two Mistakes Singles Make”)

    (Link): Obnoxious and Sexist Preacher Mark Driscoll Wants Christian Singles to Stay Single Indefinitely – And Even Though Unwanted, Prolonged Singleness has Been a Huge Issue For Christian Singles for A Couple Decades Now – Driscoll: ‘Christians should not marry pro choicers’

    (Link): Self Professing Christian Married Guy of 21 Years and Father of Two Admits to Being a Pervy Unfaithful Rat Bastard Who Uses Cheating Sites to Hook Up With Greedy Vapid 20 Somethings

    (Link): Pastor charged in wife’s murder was headed to Europe to marry boyfriend, prosecutor says – Single Xtian Ladies: Kick that Be Equally Yoked Teaching to the Curb! Also: Marriage and Parenthood do not make people more godly or mature or loving or ethical

    (Link): Baptist Preacher Arrested for Allegedly Fire Bombing Ex Girlfriend’s House While She Was In It – Another Example of Why the Equally Yoked Teaching is A Joke for Single Christian Women

    (Link): Beware of HIV / AIDS Infected Christian Male Preachers On Dating Sites
    My response to Deb on the Charisma News site, mentioned above:

      Deb, I agree with some of what you wrote, but differ on one or two points. I did not care for parts of Grady’s editorial, however.

      I wrote a blog post about it (Christian Pundit on Word Press), called “A Critique of – 10 Men Christian Women Should Never Marry by J. Lee Grady / And on Christians Marrying Non Christians -and- Unrealistic, Too Rigid Spouse Selection Lists by Christians”

      As I said on my blog, Grady made one or two points I agreed with, and a few I did not.

      I can’t share your passive approach to dating, however. I am over 40, female, never married, was a Christian for many years, was taught to simply pray, wait, have faith and God would send me a spouse, yet I remain never-married into my 40s. There are many other single, adult Christian females in the same position as myself.

      If you want to get married you will have to date. Dating is not fun or pleasant, but it is something a woman must do if she wants to get married.

      Even men who claim to be Christians on dating sites I’ve run across are sex-obsessed pigs who don’t even attempt to live celibate, single lives, as they should be doing, since the Bible teaches sex is for marriage only.

      But you have to wade through the muck of the dating world to get married. God does not magically grant most women with a spouse who simply pray, hope, and wait for one.

      If that worked for you, great, but that passive “wait, trust, and pray” has not worked for lots of single Christian women who find themselves still single past the age of 35 and 40.

      I do agree with you that most churches and denominations ignore adult, single celibates and sexual purity standards. I am still a virgin at my age, and churches ignore celibate adults who are over 30, and they also tend to ignore the divorced, childless married couples, and widows / widowers.

      I have seen virginity and celibacy mocked and downplayed, even by Christians in the past few years, everyone from the more liberal Christians (which I would expect) but also by self professing conservatives, such as Southern Baptist Al Mohler, Russell Moore, and blogger Tim Challies.

      Conservative Christians actually diminish sexual purity now and feel it’s impossible for anyone to remain a virgin past age 25 / 30, even though plenty have accomplished that.

      So many Christian women (and a smattering of male ones, but it’s mostly female) are now saying they found sexual purity and virginity teachings they heard while in church, or in other Christian material and venues when they were younger, to be so incredibly guilt- or shame- provoking (because they voluntarily chose to engage in pre- marital sex at an earlier time), that conservative, Christian males (and some females) and entire Christian groups (such as “Focus on the Family”) are now writing many blog pages and articles downplaying celibacy and virginity.

      Tim Challies (who is a famous Christian blogger) went so far at to say on one of his blog pages a few months ago that “even fornicators are virgins now” to soothe the guilty feelings of fornicators who read his blog.

      Christian television host Pat Robertson recently said on his TV show that virginity was for Mary (mother of Jesus) only, when a viewer wrote in asking a question about sexual purity.

      Guys like Robertson feel that hetero pre marital sex is inevitable, unavoidable, and that churches should teach an “easy breezy” forgiveness message about sexual sin. His view on this is common among other Christians these days.

      There are other examples, but that should suffice. Christians are no longer upholding adult celibacy, or the notion of staying a virgin until marriage, even if one is over the age of 25; they are not telling fornicators to repent of the fornication / sexual sin. (Some Christians object to the term “fornicate” itself these days, it’s considered too judgy or “old fogey.”)

      Even main stream Christian groups and denominations have caved in to secular culture on sexual issues, and act as though hetero sexual sin is no big deal. Some will condemn homosexuality til the cows come home, but dismiss hetero sin of the sexual variety.

      Though, strangely, I have seen some Christians (who are hetero) who feel so sorry for homosexual singles, they say they are fine and peachy with homosexuals having pre marital sex, but these types of Christians still feel that hetero singles must abstain – it’s a sexual double standard.

    New Christian Sex Propaganda: Supposedly Traditional Gender Roles Equals More, Better Sex

    New Christian Sex Propaganda: Supposedly Traditional Gender Roles Equals More, Better Sex

    I give this newest Christian propaganda about sex the same weight as I do other forms of previous Christian sex propaganda, such as, “if you wait until marriage to have sex, the sex will be spectacular and regular.”

    Well, that has turned out not to be true, based on all the Christian (and some Non Christian) people I’ve read about or seen on TV who say they were virgins until marriage, and then the sex was lousy or dwindled down to zero times a month (see this link for examples).

    By the way, as you can see from my link that has many examples, Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread), married Christian sex does not keep married Christian men (and sometimes wives) from having affairs, raping people, using porn, or paying for prostitutes.

    If being a married Christian – whether complementarian or egalitarian regarding gender roles – kept married couples immune from sexual sin, you would not see the sort of news stories I keep track of in that post, of married couples being porn addicts, having affairs, and using prostitutes.

    At least a few Christians were quoted in this who did not agree.

    Here we go:
    (Link): Gender Roles in Marriage (Part1): Couples in Traditional Marriage Roles Have More Sex, Study Finds

      February 17, 2014|10:29 am

      A recent study suggests that married couples will have more sex and be less likely to divorce if they assume more traditional gender roles where the husband does 40 percent of the housework and the wife earns 40 percent of the income. Some experts disagree, however, over whether or not the study supports these gender roles within a Christian a marriage.

      “I don’t do theology by polling, but I’m glad to cite any study that shows God’s blessing of following His plan for men and women,” said Owen Strachan, vice president of The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. “This particular study gives evidence that there definitely are differences between men and women – that men are called to provide and there’s a certain mystery to manhood that draws women,” Strachan told The Christian Post in a recent interview.

      … Mimi Haddad, president of (Link): Christians for Biblical Equality, vehemently disagrees. “Biology is not destiny; following Christ is destiny,” Haddad declared in an interview with CP on Wednesday.

      Haddad asserts that “marriage today is more about self-satisfaction and self-gratification, whereas in earlier days it was about serving the world, serving God.” Rather than worrying about how much fun they will have in the bedroom, Christians should focus on maximizing their service to God and others.

      …Mark Yarhouse, a Christian expert on sexual identity and author of Understanding Sexual Identity: A Resource for Youth Ministry, explains that “our culture is a little caught up on sexual activity.” He mentioned worldwide studies that reveal the value of sexual egalitarianism for intimacy.

      Yarhouse cited Edward Laumann’s sexual survey involving 27,000 people across the world, investigating “nations where there are pretty rigid cultural norms verses more egalitarian social norms.” In such broad studies, Yarhouse reported, “you are seeing greater satisfaction in the countries that would be more likely to be egalitarian.” People in such societies tend to be interested in satisfying the desires of both partners, so the quality of intimacy is greater.

      “When you’re in a culture where men are more traditional and those gaps are more significant, you may have practices and habits that are less fulfilling to the female,” Yarhouse explained.

    Note that this article quotes Strachan, who is a sexist clown.

    To read one rebuttal of some of his views, please see this link (from Rachel Held Evans – whom I disagree with on some topics, but I am totally with her on the gender complementarian topic):

    (Link): If men got the Titus 2 Treatment… (on Rachel Held Evan’s blog, addressing a blog post by Owen Strachan)

    Anyhoooooo. It’s fascinating that Christians feel the need to keep pouring on incentives to stop people from fooling around outside of marriage.

    Christians can’t just quote the parts of the Bible that say fornication is a no-no, they have to quote studies that claim your married sex life will be rocking if only you do “X” or avoid “Z.”

    Or, this may be serving to bolster sexist “biblical womanhood” and gender complementarian unbiblical nonsense.

    One great thing about getting off the Baptist and evangelical merry-go-round is not having to give a crap about these things so much. I don’t let them guide my life anymore. But I do feel sad and offended for people still sucked into these world views and lifestyles.
    Related posts this blog:

    (Link): False Christian Hype About Waiting Until Marriage For Sex – We’ve Gone From “It’s Mindblowing” to Now: “It’s Magical” Re: Timothy Keller / Tim Keller Virginity Celibacy Singles PreMarital Sex

    (Link): Problems Created by Conservative Christian Teachings About Virginity, Sex, and Marriage: Christian Couple Who Were Virgins At Marriage Are Experiencing Sexual Problems – Re: UnVeiled Wife (Marriage does not guarantee great sex)

    (Link): Christian Stereotypes About Female Sexuality : All Unmarried Women Are Supposedly Hyper Sexed Harlots – But All Married Ones are Supposedly Frigid or Totally Uninterested in Sex

    (Link): Do men really have higher sex drives than women? (article/study)

    (Link): AARP post: How to Handle a Sexless Married Life – But Christians Promise You Great Hot Regular Married Sex

    (Link): Gotta Maintain that Propaganda that Married Christian Sex is “Mind Blowing”

    (Link): More Married Couples Admit to Sexless Marriages (various articles) / Christians promise you great frequent sex if you wait until marriage, but the propaganda is not true

    Christians Who Can’t Agree on Who The Old Testament Is For and When or If It Applies

    Christians Who Can’t Agree on Who The Old Testament Is For and When or If It Applies

    I usually blog about my views about singleness and marriage, but as I find myself questioning the Christian faith, I sometimes like to make the occasional posts about that too.

    Even though I sort of find myself not entirely grasping the Christian faith any longer (I am somewhere between agnostic and Christian), my understanding of spiritual matters or the Bible tend to be consistent with an orthodox (note the little “o” – I have actually had people confuse “orthodox” with “Greek Orthodox” – no, I do not mean “orthodox” as in the “Greek Orthodox” church or denomination) and conservative views and understandings.

    As far as that goes, I believe in sola scriptura – but not in what I have deemed “hyper sola scriptura.”

    God sometimes spoke to believers in the Old and New Testaments via inward thoughts of the Holy Spirit, via angelic messengers, dreams, handwriting on walls, prophets, via creation (ie, nature, as the book of Romans mentions), etc.

    I see nothing in the New Testament which says God halted using any and all extra-scriptural means to communicate with followers of Jesus.

    I do believe that Christians should check their beliefs against the written word, and if their dream, vision, or belief conflicts with the written word, they need to really reconsider it. (I have written about things like this before, like in this post: (Link): Contemporary American Christianity’s Fascination with NDE Stories – and in one or two other posts.)

    What annoys me are the “hyper sola scriptura” type of Christians who automatically brush off, or brush aside, the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let’s say you are a Christian who’s going through a tough time, and you prayed about it, and you felt God spoke to you inwardly and told you something about your situation, or God spoke some word of comfort. I believe something like that is orthodox and not un-scriptural.

    I believe God the Holy Spirit can and does still communicate with people that way – but your hyper sola scripture-ist will scoff at that.

    Many of the HSSs are probably tempted to chalk something like that up to superstition or believe it borders on WoF (Word of Faith) theology (I do not agree with WoF, by the way).

    Do I think some Christians are too quick to attribute a thought or feeling to God, or that they don’t read the Bible enough, and that this can be dangerous or problematic and lead to Christians accepting false beliefs or teachings? Yes.

    But it still remains God gifted believers with the Holy Spirit to guide them at times, because sometimes, the Bible is not always crystal clear on some topics, or does not explicitly mention others.

    The Bible does not, for example, instruct people on which college they should attend, what they should major in, and what career they should pursue after graduating, and those are all fairly serious life questions.

    You cannot flip to Galatians chapter 4 or Hebrews chapter 2 to find a ‘biblical’ answer to the question, “What career should I enter into?”

    One of the things I find odd about HSSs (Hyper Sola Scripturists) is that they almost seem – like atheists – to deny the supernatural.

    I mean, HSSs will admit to belief in supernatural events already recorded in the Bible, such as Jesus being born of a virgin and Jesus walking on water, but they behave as though God never, ever, interferes in a miraculous way in the world today, and I see nothing in the Bible that says He does not.

    I’m not even talking about “speaking in tongues.” You have Christians today who fuss and bicker about “is that gift for today or not?” I don’t know if that gift is for today or not, but that sort of thing is not really what I am discussing in this post.

    Continue reading

    Pat Robertson says ‘Virginity Has Nothing To Do With Marriage’ and Says (Paraphrasing) ‘Virginity Was Fine For Mary But Not Applicable For Any Other Christians’

    Pat Robertson says ‘Virginity Has Nothing To Do With Marriage’ and Says (Paraphrasing) ‘Virginity Was Fine For Mary But Not Applicable For Any Other Christians’

    This is the second or third time in the past year or so that Christian TV personality Pat Robertson has pretty much said that God or the Bible do not teach that Christians are to abstain from pre-marital sex.

    Robertson tends to “gloss over” sexual sin committed by heterosexuals, as though it’s not a big deal, which makes it harder for hetero people who are still single and virgins in their 40s, such as me, to continue to hold on, to continue to find compelling reasons not to sleep around.

    (But then, I’ve begun a slow drift away from the Christian faith the last couple years, so maybe some of this is not applicable to me, but it bothers me to see that it is impacting single people who are still squarely in the faith.)

    I have noticed any time Robertson classifies homosexuality as sinful that left wing sites jump all over him, but they fall silent when he basically endorses hetero pre- marital sexual sin or writes it off as being a non-issue. (Nice double standard the liberals have there.)

    I don’t see any Christian speakers or media personalities calling out Robertson on his anti- virginity views, and I have blogged about them before (like here: (Link): Christian TV Show Host Pat Robertson Disrespects Virginity – Says Pre-Marital Sex Is “Not A Bad Thing”).

    (Robertson also sometimes takes a lax view towards men who cheat on their wives, which is also troubling.)

    You can watch / listen to the video under discussion in this post here:
    (Link): ‘Bring It On’ – Robertson Answers Questions From Viewers – CBN site (broadcast Feb 11, 2014)
    -That same video is also embedded at the bottom of this post, via You Tube-

    The question (viewer letter) we are interested in for the purpose of this post is the third or fourth letter in the video.

    The letter from the married woman to Robertson in the video reads:

      I met my husband in church at a time I was a virgin.

      He was divorced with two kids, having left his wife after she cheated on him. Within weeks, I was living with him and got pregnant by him.

      We have since married and have been together three years, but now I feel like I betrayed God because I didn’t marry a virgin, had pre-marital sex, and had a child out of wedlock.

      My husband and I get along great and never argue, but I feel like I should start over. Should I stay married, or leave him and become celibate?
      - Viewer

    I notice that Pat gets these sorts of letters with regularity, about once every 3 – 4 months; someone will say they were a virgin but then slept around, or whatever, then married the guy, then want to know if God wants them to divorce the spouse.

    How can people be so ignorant and naive? Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    While I don’t believe that the Bible teaches a “permanence” view of marriage (e.g., I don’t believe the Bible teaches an abused woman has to stay with her abusive spouse forever), it does hold marriage in pretty high esteem – which means, you would be heaping sin on top of sin to divorce the dude just because you had pre-marital sex with him.

    Anyway, Robertson’s response to her was to diminish virginity, as is his habit when people write to him with questions about virginity and celibacy. Why is Robertson not being called out for this unbiblical position? Why are other Christians remaining silent?

    Here is Robertson’s reply (this is my paraphrase, it may not be word- for- word; the site does not provide a transcript, so I’m typing this as I am listening to the audio; emphasis added by me to the text):

      [Pat Robertson responding to woman's letter]

      Wow. You know it’s amazing this guy is a Christian yet… this man, he’s married and is seducing a woman two weeks after he met her, he’s having sex with her. Within two weeks? [Or weeks?]

      He must have really put the move on you really heavy. You must have been pretty willing. All right, but.

      But the subject, the fact that you weren’t a virgin or he wasn’t a virgin has nothing to do with marriage.

      There’s nothing in the Bible that disqualifies somebody, ‘well you gotta marry and you weren’t a virgin.’ I don’t know anything in the Bible that talks about that.

      That was fine for Mary, she was a virgin, but she was… what was in her was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God. All right.

      So you’ve been married, you have a child, you have what is apparently a Christian husband, the reason for his divorce was infidelity of the spouse, so…. that’s okay; and I see no reason why you should not live a happy married life.

      You’re doing OK together, so rejoice in what you have. Don’t be coming up with all these spurious problems.

      I mean you now… so far, so good.

      You made some mistakes, you did something wrong, but you have rectified that and now you’re living according to God’s law, so enjoy.

      Forgive yourself, God will forgive you, it’s over, no you don’t want a divorce and start all over again, that makes no sense at all.

    True enough, the Bible does not say that non-virgins are not “marriage material,” but, the Bible does make a case for virginity in being the expectation for singles, in passages that discuss that the marriage bed should not be defiled, the penalty for fornication in the Old Testament was stoning to death (which indicates God is not fine with people having pre-marital sex, only that the penalty changed in the New Testament), and the Bible says if one cannot control one’s sexual passions, one should try to get married – which suggests having sex prior to marriage is frowned upon by God.

    In other words, the Bible may not declare “non virgins are not marriagable” but the assumption still seems to be, “followers of Christ are to remain virgins until marriage.”

    It’s rather disingenuous, therefore, for Robertson and other Christians to teach, in a round about way, that virginity is not a “requirement” for marriage for Christians – because it still is.

    Fornication is a forgivable sin, yes, but still remains a sin never-the-less, and no matter how many fornicators feel shamed, guilty, or dirty over that knowledge.

    The Bible may not “disqualify” a fornicator from marriage and forbid virgins from marrying non-virgins, but the Bible still teaches that Christians are to remain virgins until marriage.

    Your shame or guilt feelings do not negate that the Bible classifies some behavior as sinful.

    Perhaps one of the oddest views Robertson spouts in the video is where he seems to imply that virginity- until- marriage was a quality and discipline and state of being which God expected only of Mary (who was betrothed to Joseph) and no other human before or since; that is simply not biblical.

    There ARE Christian adults, who are over 30, 40, and older, who are still virgins, who have never married – there are also some adult, divorced Christians who are staying celibate after they have divorced.

    How do you suppose it makes such Christians feel to be surrounded by a Christian culture that just shrugs its shoulders about pre- or extra-marital sex, as if fornication is not a sin, and God winks at it?

    I’ll tell you, and as I said above: it makes it harder and harder for adult celibates to hang in there.

    What is the point in me staying sexually pure, when so many Christian talking heads say, “Nah, God does not REALLY expect you to abstain. If you slip up and fool around, just forgive yourself. God created you to be sexual. Just get over it and move on. Virginity is not for marriage.”

    This type of rationale, meant to soothe the guilty feelings of fornicators, removes any incentive for an adult virgin to remain a virgin.

    Doesn’t the Bible say don’t do or say anything that may cause a sister in Christ to stumble?

    I’m not asking for Christian fornicators to be bashed in the heads with rocks by church- going mobs, but I’d like to see a little more accountability in this area, instead of an, “aw shucks, we all fornicate, don’t worry about it” lax attitude from Christians.

    You see where Robertson said,

      That was fine for Mary, she was a virgin, but she was… what was in her was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God. All right.

    I have noticed that the usual evangelical or conservative Christian response to singleness, virginity, and celibacy is to respect all three conditions ONLY when discussing certain Bible figures, such as Jesus or Paul, or in the case of Robertson today, with Mary.

    As to those Christian adults who are singles and virgins in this day and age, there is no support for us; we are expected to fornicate.

    (Or, in other branches of conservative and liberal Christian thought today, hetero singles are expected to abstain, but homosexual singles are not, which I have blogged about before as well).

    Anyway, I blogged about that odd and frustrating phenomenon before, where virginity and singleness are respected only in regards to Jesus, Paul, and Mary, here:
    (Link): Ever Notice That Christians Don’t Care About or Value Singleness, Unless Jesus Christ’s Singleness and Celibacy is Doubted or Called Into Question by Scholars?

    Feb 11, 2014 video of Pat Robertson saying that virginity is not for marriage, and only for Mary (Mother of Jesus):

    Related posts, this blog:

    (Link): Christian TV Show Host Pat Robertson Disrespects Virginity – Says Pre-Marital Sex Is “Not A Bad Thing”

    (Link): Christian Preacher Admits He Won’t Preach About Sexuality For Fear It May Offend Sexual Sinners

    (Link): Sometimes Shame Guilt and Hurt Feelings Over Sexual Sins Is a Good Thing – but – Emergents, Liberals Who Are Into Virgin and Celibate Shaming

    (Link): Biblical Balance in Teaching About Sexual Sin – don’t white wash and downplay sexual sin, but don’t continually beat people up over it

    (Link): No, Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity – Christians Attack and Criticize Virginity Sexual Purity Celibacy / Virginity Sexual Purity Not An Idol

    (Link): Anti Virginity Editorial by Christian Blogger Tim Challies – Do Hurt / Shame Feelings or Sexual Abuse Mean Christians Should Cease Supporting Virginity or Teaching About Sexual Purity

    (Link): Christian Early Marriage Position Advocates A Low View of Celibacy and Virginity and Adult Singleness – another example: Justin Deeter Blog about Early Marriage

    (Link): Virgin – and Celibate – Shaming : Christian Double Standards – Homosexuals Vs Hetero Singles – Concerning Thabiti Anyabwile and Gag Reflexes

    (Link): Liberty Counsel Fears Prom, Losing Freedom To Be Abstinent Before Marriage – their marketing has been jeered by ex Christians, atheists, liberal Christians, and secular left wingers / Re: Day of Purity Campaign

    (Link): Preacher Mark Driscoll Basically Says No, Single Christian Males Cannot or Should Not Serve as Preachers / in Leadership Positions – Attempts to Justify Unbiblical, Anti Singleness Christian Bias, Has Incorrect and Unbiblical Views about Celibacy

    (Link): I thought Christians “worshipped” virginity? Guess not: TLW (True Love Waits) Spokesman Says TLW Will NOT “Elevate Virginity” – Life Way to Relaunch “True Love Waits” Campaign

    (Link): Where Are America’s Virgins? Discouraging the Virtuous / Sex and Never Married Single Christians / Virginity Virgin by Julia Duin

    (Link): Emergent Christian Guy Says Christians Need to “Celebrate Pre Marital Sex” (Fornication)

    (Link): Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re: Celibacy

    (Link): Why So Much Fornication – Because Christians Have No Expectation of Sexual Purity

    (Link): Joshua Rogers of Boundless / Focus on the Family Attacks Biblical Teaching of Virginity Until Marriage

    (Link): Christians Who Attack Virginity Celibacy and Sexual Purity – and specifically Russell D. Moore and James M. Kushiner

    (Link): The Christian and Non Christian Phenomenon of Virgin Shaming and Celibate Shaming

    (Link): Famous Historical Christian Figure Expects Everyone To Fail At Sexual Purity

    (Link): Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

    Over 10 Million Men of Prime Working Age Are Unemployed in the US and Experts Think It’s Causing Declining Marriage Rates

    Over 10 Million Men of Prime Working Age Are Unemployed in the US and Experts Think It’s Causing Declining Marriage Rates

    I believe I’ve covered this story before too, if not in its own post, I know I mentioned it in passing in another one months ago.

    Do you now what I find most moronic about this? The Southern Baptist solution to declining marriage rates is to scream at people: “MARRY YOUNG! MARRY EARLY! Marry before you turn 25!!!!”

    Clearly, marriage is declining for several factors, not just that people are putting it off longer.

    Another thing that bothers me about the “just marry early!!” simplistic advice from Al Mohler and other Southern Baptists is that the age at which one gets married is something one has little control over.

    I did not get my first boyfriend until my late 20s (past the age of 25). How was I supposed to marry before age 25, as Southern Baptists advocate, when I did not even have a boyfriend at that point? I could not wave a magic wand and make one appear from thin air.

    Christians definitely have this “Magical Marriage Fairy Tale” view. They assume that if you want marriage bad enough, then poof, Mr. Right will just happen to appear in your life (and already on one knee, with ring in hand), and when you want him to – like, if you are dying to marry before age 25, he’ll show up before then, they think.

    Or, if you want to marry by the age of 30, Mr. Right, they think, will just happen to show up when you are 27 or 28.

    I’ve discussed that Magical Marriage Fairy Tale before (Link): here. Just wanting something badly doesn’t mean it’s going to just happen.

    Anyway, here is the story that guys are not getting married as much and probably due to the poor economy:

    (Link): Over 10 Million Men of Prime Working Age Are Unemployed in the US and Experts Think It’s Causing Declining Marriage Rates


      February 7, 2014|12:48 pm

      More than 10 million men, or one out of every six in the 25 to 54 age bracket, are unemployed in the United States, and only about one third of them say they are actively seeking jobs. Experts believe this dire condition could also be causing declining marriage rates.

      “Some of them are looking for jobs. Two-thirds say they aren’t. Some are supported by families or friends; men without jobs are far less likely to be married than men with jobs. About 2 million of these prime-age men are on Social Security Disability Insurance,” said David Wessel, director of the Hutchins Center on Fiscal and Monetary Policy at the Brookings Institution in a report Thursday.

      Noting the acute and chronic nature of the unemployment situation among men, Wessel said it was a result of the slow recovery of the U.S. economy from the Great Recession as well as a shift away from the types of work popular among men before the recession. Even as the economy improves, however, he pointed out that employment troubles among men is likely to persist.

    Related posts:

    (Link): Just Say No – For white working-class women, it makes sense to stay single mothers. (Not enough eligible single men for women to marry) by N. Cahn and J. Carbone

    (Link): Woman’s First Marriage at Age 40+

    (Link): First Time Marriage for Man and Woman Both Over Age 40

    (Link): The Nauseating Push by Evangelicals for Early Marriage

    (Link): Christian Early Marriage Position Advocates A Low View of Celibacy and Virginity and Adult Singleness – another example: Justin Deeter Blog about Early Marriage

    Bad News for Male Christians Over 30 Who Have Never Married – The Bill Gothard Scandal is Being Used to Stigmatize Never Married Adult Christian Men

    Bad News for Male Christians Over 30 Who Have Never Married – The Bill Gothard Scandal is Being Used to Stigmatize Never Married Adult Christian Men

    Please go back and see my last post ((Link): “Never Married Christians Giving Marital Advice – The Double Standard”) if you want to know who Bill Gothard is.

    All I will say about Gothard here is that he’s over 70 years of age, a very famous Christian in certain circles, and he has never married.

    A bunch of women who are now in their 40s or there abouts have been coming out of the woodwork to say the dude was inappropriate with them when they worked at his place when they were in their teens or 20s.

    Continue reading