Preacher Mark Driscoll Bashes Single Christian Males Some More

Preacher Mark Driscoll Bashes Single Christian Males Some More
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Thank you for the comments on the blog. I logged in today to find I had about 8 or 9 comments from about four different people. I cannot promise I will respond to each one. If and when I do reply, it might be tomorrow or later.
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Now on to Mark Driscoll’s recent young, single, male- bashing fest. Which is in the tradition of Debbie “Marriage Mandater” Maken’s habit of bashing young, single Christian men.

I’m a woman. So I tend to blog from, well, a woman’s perspective and primarily concerning how unmarried women are treated by evangelical Christians (and other sorts of Christians – the Neo Reformed guys and Baptists can be pretty bad).

Occasionally, I do get male readers on this blog, so I sometimes will do a post such as this one.

The older, single Christian males get stuck being stereotyped by married Christians, and Christian culture in general, as either
1. homosexual
2. pedophile or
3. social loser / weirdo

Your younger, single Christian men, those 20ish into maybe their mid 30s, get a whole other set of stereotypes from conservative, evangelical, Baptist and Neo Reformed Christians. More on that in the remainder of this post.

Seattle area Neo Reformed preacher (and all around egotist, sexist, sex obsessed, attention whore) Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church was in the news a lot the past couple of months, for crashing the “Strange Fire” conference and more recently and notoriously for being accused by conservative Christian radio show host Janet Mefferd of plagiarism.

Those topics – the Strange Fire incident and the Mefferd situation – have been blogged to death the past two weeks by a million different people. You can do a search online and quickly find a billion pages about both incidents.

Here lately, though, Driscoll was interviewed by popular right wing commentator and former Fox News cable television host Glenn Beck.

Driscoll took the opportunity in this interview with Beck to bash young, single men.

I have read a few articles about the interview, but I have so far not been able to bring myself to actually watch the video of it.

I assume Driscoll was foremost being critical of Christian single males, but perhaps he was speaking in generic terms, of all men in their twenties, both Christian and Non Christian.

While I largely abhor Driscoll on so many fronts, I do think he may have a small point where he criticizes single men for not asking women out on dates. I do see that as being a problem for Christian single males in their 20s and even much older.

It even appears to be a problem with Non Christian males. Not too long ago, Amy of the secular advice column “Ask Amy” brought it up in response to a young, single man who wrote her:

DEAR AMY:

    “Newly Single” is the 27-year-old woman who noted that guys never ask for a woman’s phone number. I’m a guy, and I figure if the woman is really interested in me, she’d say something or ask for my number.

It’s not laziness on the guy’s part. It’s just a way we screen.
— Satisfied in Seattle

Here was Amy’s response to this guy, one which I totally agreed with:

DEAR SATISFIED:

    If everybody is “screening,” nobody is ever going to get together.

Growing up, I (and other Christian females), were told by preachers, Christian parents, and Christian dating material, never to pursue a man.

We Christian females were told, even in Non-Christian dating advice books and columns, that men like to pursue.

We were told never to ask a man out, do not initiate flirting, and so forth. We were essentially told to sit, look pretty, bat our eyelashes, and the man was supposed to take the lead and ask us out on dinner dates or to movies.

Lo and behold if I arrived to my early 40s still single because most men will not approach, or were not brave enough, to ask me out.

Yes, I had men flirt with me in my college days, but I only recognize that in hindsight; the guys were showing interest, but I had been taught by Christians (and secular dating advice) to expect a very forth-right request as in a male approaching me and asking,
“Hey, Christian Pundit, are you free this Friday night? I would like to take you out to dinner.”

Therefore, I did not read the offers to carry my school books from college class to college class by guys, as they often did, as romantic interest. I was interpreting those gestures as the guys being “nice,” not as them having a crush and wanting to date.

I kept waiting for these men to boldly, plainly state their intent to me:
“Hey you. Free tonight? Great. I’ll pick you up at 6, for dinner and a show at 7.”
-That never happened.

I hear this from a lot of other single Christian women, both young and middle aged: first of all, there is a “man shortage” going on, but even if there are men present in a Christian church, or whatever environment, they will not ask the woman out.

This does seem to be worse among two particular groups of men:
1. Men today who are under age 30, and
2. men of all ages who are shy/ scared/ fear rejection, so they will not ask a woman out on a date.

I have seen these men on the internet say they would PREFER a woman ASK THEM OUT, rather than be expected to ask a woman out. If that is the fantasy you are living in, where you continually hope women will ask you out, you will die alone and single.

Even in this day and age, women -even Non Christian feminist ones- are strongly encouraged by culture, parents, and friends, to wait for the guy to do all the heavy lifting in starting a relationship.

Yes, sometimes women will make the first move and ask a man out or initiate the flirting (I have done so before), but more often than not, we ladies wait to be asked by the guy because we are taught by culture and religious leaders we are to be passive.

The dude is supposed to take the initiative – that is what we ladies hear repeatedly from our pre-teen years to our senior years and all stages in-between.

I do think single Christian males need to step up and start asking women out. So to a degree, I am with Driscoll on that much.

However, I think there’s a polite or gentle way to get the point across. I don’t think young men have to be beaten up or shamed to get the message.

If Driscoll is operating under the assumption that getting married would automatically grow a man up, he is mistaken.

I have blogged and blogged many examples taken from the news of married people, some of whom are Christian, both men and women, who have shown evidence of being selfish, ungodly, and immature.

I have featured story after story on this blog of married men and women who have done everything from rape children, neglect babies for hours or days resulting in the child’s death; stolen drugs from friends; who have raging porn addictions; and one married Baptist preacher who was arrested for being a serial killer.
I also featured one story of a hetero, married Christian youth pastor and father himself, who was raping young sons of other parents.
All of these people are married or were parents, but marriage and parenthood did nothing to make them behave properly or more godly.

Here are some links about Driscoll’s latest young, single- male- bashing commentary on Beck:
(Please note: some of the links I am providing here may be to blogs or sites that are liberal or emergent;
I am tipping agnostic these days, but my understanding of Christianity is such that my theological and doctrinal views still tend to be conservative and right wing.
Meaning, I do not necessarily agree with all views of all sites and blogs I am linking to below if they are liberal):

(Link): MARK DRISCOLL TELLS GLENN BECK THAT TODAY’S YOUNG MEN ARE ‘JOKES’

(Link): Mark Driscoll on Glenn Beck

Excerpt:

    In the first video, Glenn opens up by saying, “Mark says that if we lose the men and we lose the inner cities, Christiandom [sic] is done, at least in the West.” Mark simply replies, “Yeah,” and goes on to talk about “re-evangelizing” cities and their men. Here is more evidence that Mark is really looking for a return to Christendom, not a rejection of it. While he confuses this with his talk of “civil religion” elsewhere, he is pining for the (supposed) days gone by when Christianity was central in American culture and politics/legislation. This is the meaning of “Christendom” in the thinking of the new religious right.

(Link): Glenn Beck Interviews Mark Driscoll: The Age of Intolerance

This is from Beck’s site, The Blaze (which is right wing):
(Link): FIERY PASTOR DOESN’T MINCE WORDS ON WHAT YOUNG MEN TODAY NEED TO HEAR: ‘STOP SMILING, BECAUSE YOU’RE THE JOKE’

Excerpts from The Blaze:

    Driscoll explained [to Beck] how he read an article explaining that many single, young men would prefer to play video games, text, and download porn on their phones while taking a bus than drive themselves.

“So guys have no vision of future, career, no intent of taking a gal on a date, maybe to get a wife out of the deal, maybe have a kid,” he said. “You can’t take ‘em to little league, can’t go pick up your groceries…”

When Beck asked Driscoll what he says to such men, Driscoll responded strongly: “You’ve got to tell them that they’re wrong! That they’re absolutely wrong, and they have no idea what they’re doing. And that the culture has sold them a bunch of products, and it’s just trying to make them addicted to porn and pot and substances and to take all the money out of their wallet…because the fool’s parade keeps going to the ATM and handing away their future.”

…Driscoll described many of the “men” today as “boys who can shave.”

“Nobody looks at these guys and says, ‘You didn’t have a dad. You’re addicted to porn. You don’t have a clue. You don’t have a plan. You’re part of the problem. Stop smiling, because you’re the joke,’” Driscoll remarked.”Nobody just tells them that, but that’s exactly what they need…”

Notice in that same interview, Driscoll uses a bus analogy:

    “No one else is doing it,” he said simply. “The world is just filled with noise, and if you can cut against the grain, say something in a different tone with different content … initially you’re offended by it … but now I’m interested because maybe, maybe I’ve been lied to. Because my thing ain’t working … maybe the bus I’m on is headed over a cliff and it’s a good time to consider getting off.”

What the hell is it with Driscoll and busses?

Driscoll once said over a year ago that church members at his church that disagree with him will get “thrown off the bus” and he giggled after saying it. Listen to Driscoll in this audio in a You Tube video:
(Link): Mark Driscoll – There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus

Several months after making those “throwing people off the bus” remarks, he wrote some weird blog page or said in a sermon that the preacher of a church is like the pilot, and the passengers need to shut up, don’t question anything, and just trust the pilot.

Driscoll does not want critical thinkers at his church, he wants drones who will unquestioningly accept his views, while forking over tithes. But anyway, his penchant for using vehicle analogies to talk about church is odd. You can read more about that here:
(Link): Mark Driscoll has shifted transportation metaphors

But anyhow, here we are again with single Christian males being bashed.

For those of you single Christian guys now in your twenties, it gets worse as time marches on.

As I already noted early in this post, you will go from being chewed out for being an X-box playing, bus-taking slacker, but by the time you reach your mid-30s and later, the stereotypes change: there will be suspicions by even pleasant, grey haired old ladies at your church that you are a homosexual, a pedophile, or garden variety weirdo. You have that to look forward to.
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Related posts this blog:

(Link): Conservative Christianity Stuck in 1950s Leave it To Beaver-ville

(Link):  Preacher Mark Driscoll Disparages Virgins and Virginity (Again) – The Feelings of Fornicators Always Take Precedence With the Anti-Purity Culture, Anti-Slut- Shaming, and Pro- Cheap Grace Crowd

(Link): Christian Gender and Sex Stereotypes Act as Obstacles to Christian Singles Who Want to Get Married (Not All Men Are Obsessed with Sex)

(Link): Stigmas and Stereotypes of Single Unmarried Men Over 25 or 30 Years of Age – They’re Supposedly All Homosexual or Pedophiles

(Link): How Christian Teaching on Gender Roles and Sex Can Mess People Up in Adulthood (from Wine and Marble blog, post by a former Christian guy)

(Link): Why Men Don’t Go To Church

(Link): Christian Males Blaming their Unwanted Protracted Singleness on Feminism – They have the wrong target

(Link): How the Sexual Revolution Ruined Friendship – Also: If Christians Truly Believed in Celibacy and Virginity, they would stop adhering to certain sexual and gender stereotypes that work against both

(Link): How (Married) Christians and Christian Teachings About Dating/Marriage Are Keeping Single Christians Single Part 1

(Link): The Annoying, Weird, Sexist Preoccupation by Christian Males with Female Looks and Sexuality

10 thoughts on “Preacher Mark Driscoll Bashes Single Christian Males Some More”

  1. “While I largely abhor Driscoll on so many fronts, I do think he may have a small point where he criticizes single men for not asking women out on dates.”

    OK, but there is no point in asking a woman out on a “date” if you have no interest in her.

    1. I was referring to single men who do want to date/ have a girlfriend and/or marry. A lot of the ones I’ve come across on various blogs admit to being too afraid to approach a woman and ask her out on a date.

  2. Yeah, I would hate for Driscoll to get a hold of me. He would rip me to bits, for sure. Though perhaps in my case, I may need some good discipline in my life. Hear me out. This is going to be a lament from me in the worst way. Just hear me out.

    Not only have I not stepped up to ask some Christian girl, I haven’t even asked out any girl in my whole life. I am simply too scared to do that, and I am stuck in conflict. Part of me wants to never ask a girl out because I would rather not even go through all the “relationship drama” that seems to entail, with having to basically flirt, pay for dates, and all the trivial things that it seems relationships are made of. In some instances, I feel like romantic relationships are so ridiculous, but then I know where that thought may come from honestly: fear.

    I am simply scared of relationships, and worse I’m afraid to make the attempt. Like you, CP, I have seen countless story after countless story where a wife kills her husband (husbands kills wives) after affairs and divorces. The Scripture says that “He who marries will have trouble in this life”, but I never thought it would that kind of trouble. Those stories have basically kissed goodbye any thoughts of being happily married for me. Now I know that I could be divorced, in an affair, cheated on, in jail for life, or murdered by my wife at worst. I know those things could be awaiting for me. The marital bliss that people talk about, I only see it as a lie. If marriage leads to so many murder cases, why put yourself and your heart through all of that stuff? And how do you know if you are picking the right girl?

    I would like to say I’m scared now. I am now simply scared of relationships. . Even worse, I am scared to even have sex. I haven’t even kissed a girl, now make the jump to sex. Think about that. I have never even had lips planted on me, and even that makes me afraid. I guess you could say that’s childish, but it is true. For someone who hasn’t had “the appeal” to women, it would be unnatural for me to even kiss. Plus, I also don’t want to get paired up with someone who isn’t right for me. I do love the Lord, despite my ways. That’s why sex actually frightens me, to the point where I am now saying I don’t rationally want it. My sex drive has not been my friend in life to be honest. It’s actually been my enemy. I could honestly say that having no sex drive is the blessing I want. It would make things in life better for me. My sex drive has been a mess for me, and I don’t want to add more messes to clean up. With everything that comes from having sex, from the act itself to potential fatherhood, sex is a mess all its own in my mind.

    I simply don’t know anything about relationships. I’ve never even been in any! Why should I expect to do well in a relationship now after so many years by myself? Plus, let’s add on all the things that are particularly wrong with me. I’m a sinner to the maximum. What is there to truly offer? Right now, after graduating college, I only make $8.00 per hour, I’m basically broke with loans to pay, and on top of that lives with his ‘rents’. I can’t afford to treat a girl with so many of the nice things in life. She will look at me as a man and see nothing more than a complete disappointment and failure. I’m not asking to be a millionaire (that comes with its own problems), but I also don’t want to look like a loser either to someone. It seems everybody has a little more than I do right now. Maybe the “loser tag” is a little true. I have nothing to offer as a bartering chip in the relationship. (Oh, and did I bother to mention that I struggle with pron and erotica? Hooray! Let’s add more problems to the relationship).

    Either way, I cannot do all the things I would hope to do within a romantic relationship. I am incompetent to be in a relationship, and I simply refuse to date/court some girl while I am so flawed. Even back in the day, you had to pay a dowry for a wife to the family. Right now, I cannot afford a single darn thing. Trust me, I think it would be a whole lot better to say that no one should ever want to be with me. Even if I would want to treat that women like Christ loves the church, I am still the whore of Babylon at the end of the day. I am still the idolater, and I am still imperfect, far below the bar on my best day. There you have it.

    Let me say it this way: Ladies, you are probably better off never marrying than to marry some guy like me. As painful as to say that about myself, I have to accept this. Wait a minute, no I don’t! I hate being this way, to be honestly. I feel like a complete outcast right now. I’m the original misfit. I am all alone. There is no one really that’s in my life I see on repeat outside of church doors. I can honestly say that my computer is my best friend and closest thing. I don’t know if there is anything else that I hold more than my computer. Oh, if only it were real. Maybe then I would finally have the companion I have been looking for.

    Yeah, I used to dream about being married and used to dream about being in love. I dreamed about it all the time. It used to be my greatest hope in life. I even used to dream about the proposing to my dream girl, and I used to dream about the wedding day. I pictured everything about it. I guess I’m a weird guy that way. I pictured everything together and us being finally able to say I do. So yeah, I used to dream about being married. I used to want to get married. However, now I’m awake to the reality of marriage. I now know that marriage isn’t all rainbows. Now I feel my dreams are now dead and gone.

    I guess dreams have to die for a better good, right? Life isn’t just about me. It’s about His greatness. So I shouldn’t even care about being married anyway. I need to get comfortable with being alone now. It’s time to learn how to truly be alone.

    Oh, well, that’s my lament I guess. I’m sorry that I spent this post with a lament and a cry. I hope you see why this Christian guy hasn’t been asking women out at all. It’s because he isn’t a man yet. He is just a guy in big boy’s clothing. A pathetic, dateless, virgin, 23-year-old guy.

    Oh, well, on to another lonely Friday night for me. I better get used to saying that over and over for a very long time.

    1. I’m sorry you’re feeling lost.

      If you decide you want to date and be in a relationship, you will have to ask women out.

      As I said in the post, the vast majority of women (even the Non Christian feminists) are coached by dating articles, parents, and in general messages, from friends/media, that it’s better to let the man lead.

      We women are almost always instructed to never, ever ask a guy out or to make the first move.

      Yes, there are exceptions. You will see women who say they met their husband because they asked him out, but by and large, that is not how most marriages/dating relationships begin.

      There’s nothing to be afraid of. The worst that will happen if you ask a woman out is that the woman will say “No,” if you ask her out, and so what if she does? You just keep asking out other women you are interested in, until one of them says ‘okay.’

      By the way, the examples I give on the blog of married people killing each other and cheating on each other is not meant to scare singles away from dating or marriage.

      I know I’d still like to get married and sometime soon, I will start dating again myself. So, as you can see, I’m not scared out of dating/marriage just because of these articles, if that’s any sort of consolation.

      I post such examples of marital failures to counter the idiocy and snobbery of married Christians who tell us that marriage makes people better, more godly, and more loving than being single.

      I was engaged to a guy for a few years in my early 30s, so I guess I’m not as tangled up about some of these things. I did learn first hand that being in a relationship is not all “magical fun time,” that being in a relationship has its drawbacks.

      I don’t have any stats to quote, but just from being around the internet for years now, chatting with different people on other sites, and running into people on this blog, I can tell you that there are a lot of people out there who have never dated, never held hands, never been kissed, never had sex, never been married than you might suspect.

      Being single or devoid of a lot of relationship experience is not as rare as you might think it is.

      I guess most folks who have little to zero relationship history feel they are an abnormal freak because it does seem like everyone in your life is dating or married, and every TV show and movie puts everyone in a romantic couple.

      Don’t let that fool you, though.

      I have run into so many people online (and a few in “real life”) who are over the age of 20, 30, 40, or older who have never married/ dated/ been kissed / had sex. Some of them have shared with me (the ones who want to date or marry) that they feel left out, weird, like failures or losers because they can’t seem to meet anyone.

      By the way, you don’t have to view every date so deadly serious. A date does not have to lead to marriage the next week. Maybe if you look at it that way, dating won’t seem so scary.

      1. Well, I can’t tell you which one I like less: the thought of getting into a relationship and failing it or staying away from one and missing a chance. Right now, I am just alone and quite lonely. I really don’t know. I honestly don’t have great intimate relationships. I don’t have that buddy right now in my life. I would love to be able to, but I’m a hider and that stops me. I honestly have a hard time letting people enter into my life. I think it’s because I’m ashamed of my life, embarrassed to say I’m a loser. I would love to have that such better life, but I just don’t. Not only do I think people judge me to be a failure, I think I’m a failure also. I don’t have the big status job, or the lifestyle that people seem to want. How would a woman ever want to be with me as broke? So I feel sad to say that I have constraints for a relationship right now.

        Yet as much as I would say that I would love to cure my loneliness, I also have to know that getting into a relationship may not even happen for me. It may not even be possible that I find someone and end up without a beloved. I simply know that there is the possibility that I will have to live alone for a while. I get a little upset over that too for a reason. I didn’t grow up with abstinence ed only, but I now know that I simply want to stay a virgin until I get married, if it happens. However, I feel so alone doing that, and I want to finally experience the thing I haven’t had. I want to finally have a girlfriend. Plus, I hope it doesn’t sound weird, but I want to finally “find out what love is”. I do feel like I am missing out on love or that nobody really wants me. I’m all alone.

        I feel alone in my convictions with this. I want to go ahead and just be in a relationship where sex is a non-issue while we date. Yet I know with how the world is and how my sexual drive is, sex is going to be an issue somewhere. I guess my virgin self is simply scared to date due to being afraid of premarital sex. I tend to think of my virginity as something special to give, not just to get rid of. So I don’t want to just find some girl for my loneliness. It’s not like being with some girl cures loneliness, though you may want it to.

        It’s also not like I just want some girl either. I do want to marry a Christian girl. A true Christian girl with a true golden heart. Better yet, a woman after God’s own heart. I want to be loved by a woman like her, and I want to dedicate my heart to her too. I want to show my “romantic side” to her and treat her like Christ in love. In my heart I do. I do want to be loved by someone like you do and be married too. I am simply scared about it is all. I am so scared that I will end up failing her. I am so scared that I just don’t want to try. I’ve failed so many times in my life and have so much sin in my life that I simply cannot go forward towards meeting women. So I guess the only answer is to stay single. It seems painfully single is better than horrible marriage, even if marriage is what you have wanted for a long time.

        You know what I have wanted as my fantasy? I have wanted to honestly just hold a woman, caressing her back and holding her hips, and then finally having my first kiss with my love, adoring her beauty. I have anxiety about my first kiss actually, but I just keep loving it. I keep fantasizing about it still. I want it so badly. It seriously stinks. Everything is wrong with me, and love is the problem. Have I been bitten by the Love Bug or what?

    2. You don’t need to “step up”, Tyler. Some of us males are not meant for marriage. There is nothing wrong with you. I’m saying this as a never-married, never been in a relationship, single man of 42. I have no truck with the “marriage mandate” movement, or with anyone who denigrates or judges single men. That includes all feminists, as feminism is poison and easily spotted.

      1. @ Jonathan Castro.
        I’ve spoken to Tyler before on other threads. He has said to me on other posts at my blog that he would like to have a girlfriend (and I think he would like to marry eventually?) but is afraid no woman would want to date him, so he is hesitant to ask any women out on dates.

        But yes, your overall point, I agree with. Not everyone wants to marry or is cut out for marriage, etc. That’s true.

        About your feminism comments. I’m rather in the middle here. I’m right wing and don’t agree with everything the left wing secular feminists are into, but on occasion, they do make a decent point or have a valid complaint about life / men / society, whatever. (I sometimes agree with them on my blog, but I have also disagreed with them in a few posts, too.)

        I do not like or agree with “Men’s Rights” movements and associations, as members of such groups tend to be highly misogynistic.

  3. Well yeah he’s right this time, men are more passive than ever. I belong this christian forum where somebody asked if they would marry a virgin or non virgin woman many christian men said they would prefer a non virgin because it would be awkward for two virgins to be together and the honeymoon night would be messy, and I’m like really? You mean to tell me that after I saved myself until now, even christian men who are also virgins don’t want me? and that men are scared of what could happen when you take someone’s virginity even after marrying them? have men become this weak and stupid? This made me gave up on men even more, complete disappointment! God is there for me, men never are, these are the signs talked about in the bible even the righteous go after wicked things before the coming, do not become an unbeliever , live for him and forget the world, its just going to get worse..

    1. @ Jane Zen.
      Thanks for the comment. I hear you. It’s frustrating. I waited and waited for a Christian guy to straight up show some interest and ask me out, but they never did.

      Non-Christian men would “drop hints” but hardly any of them straight-up asked me out on dates. Unfortunately in my younger days, I was not good at picking up on the vague clues.

      And yes, there is some truly ‘backwards’ thinking going on in regards to sexual purity in Christian circles these days, as you described. (Hmm, I might make a separate post about that some time.)

      I do believe the Bible teaches “virginity until marriage” but Christians these days, on other blogs, dispute it, and as I chronicle here on my blog, there are actually liberal and conservative Christians who are arguing AGAINST virginity until marriage teachings… they claim such teachings hurts the feelings of women who had consensual pre-marital sex previously.

      So the entire biblical outlook of sex being for marriage only is being tossed into the trash because so many Christians today could not keep their pants zipped up or their skirts down.

      I can’t understand why some Christians think that the moral failing on the part of so many people in a certain area of life means all Christians should all agree to disregard or severly downplay what the Bible has to say about sexual ethics.

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