Why Progressive Christians Are Ineffective and Unpersuasive by P. Heck – Also: How Liberals Can Avoid Turning Off Right Wingers

Why Progressive Christians Are Ineffective and Unpersuasive by P. Heck

I agree with some of this guy’s points, but maybe not all.

He mentions Rachel Held Evans in his post – I think she’s right, for the most part, in her opposition to gender complementarianism, but I think she’s incorrect on other topics.

I have several more things to say below this link and long excerpt:

(Link): Why Progressive Christians Are Ineffective and Unpersuasive by P Heck


… There is a reason that liberal Christian movements like those championed by Jim Wallis, Rachel Held Evans, Shane Claiborne and others are so ineffective and unpersuasive in American culture.

Rather than seeking to glorify and build the Kingdom of God, they regularly appropriate the language of Scripture to advocate for earthly, largely political causes that never address the principal need of humanity: redemption from sin.

Continue reading “Why Progressive Christians Are Ineffective and Unpersuasive by P. Heck – Also: How Liberals Can Avoid Turning Off Right Wingers”

American Christians, Liberals, Liberal Pet Groups, and Persecution

American Christians, Liberals, Liberal Pet Groups, and Persecution

(This post has been edited and updated, especially towards the bottom, to add more commentary or links)

For about the past year, I have thinking about blogging about this topic but put it off until now.

I have seen liberal Christians, ex-Christians, left wing Non-Christians, and moderately conservative Christians complain or mock American Christians who claim that American Christians are being persecuted in the United States due to being  Christian.

In the past, I’ve seen liberal Christian blogger RHE (Rachel Held Evans) comment on this subject on her blog, on her Twitter account, as well as the Liberal, quasi- Christian, Stephanie Drury bring this up on her (Link): “Stuff Christian Culture Likes” Facebook group from time to time (edit: see updated post about the hideous “Stuff Christian Culture Likes” Facebook group (link): here).

bakeTheCake - CopyI’ve also seen moderately conservative Christians I am acquainted with discuss this in Tweets or on their blogs.

To reiterate a point I’ve made before, I do sometimes agree with SCCL’s Drury on some issues, and I even periodically Tweet her links to news stories I think she may want to share on her Twitter account or on her SCCL Facebook group.

However, I totally part ways with Drury on some topics – like this one.

The view of liberal Christians, ex-Christians, liberal Non-Christians, and even some moderately conservative Christians, is that American Christians are not under persecution in the U.S.A. for being Christian, or for practicing Christian beliefs.

I am not sure if the liberal or moderate conservative disagreement on this issue pertains to semantics (the terminology involved), or if they are actually blind and oblivious to the harassment that Christians, especially conservative, or traditional valued, Christians, face in American culture.

It is my position that American Christians do in fact face harassment – especially from the left wing – in the United States for being Christian, for wanting to practice their faith and carry it out in public, and for defending it in public.

If you are a liberal who objects to the term “persecution,” how about, instead, the words or phrases, “harassment,” “bullying,” “picking on,” “hounding,” or other terms?

I do not see American Christians getting a free pass in the United States to hold certain views or to practice their beliefs.

The left (and I’d include severe anti-theist atheists here, on this point, regardless of their political standing) insist that Christians keep their Christian faith walled off, private, and separate from all other areas of their lives.

Continue reading “American Christians, Liberals, Liberal Pet Groups, and Persecution”

Christian Personality Uses Lame, Unbiblical Excuse to Rationalize His Adultery – He Calls His Mistress His Spiritual Wife

Christian Personality Tony Jones Uses Lame, Unbiblical Excuse to Rationalize His Adultery – He Calls His Mistress His Spiritual Wife, According to Various Online Blogs and Sites

Sometime in the last few weeks especially, a story broke out on various liberal or Christian or ex Christian type groups and blogs about a guy in the emerging church by the name of Tony Jones.

I am uncertain if Jones works as a pastor or is simply an author or blogger. I’m not terribly interested in the myriad, minute details of this situation for the purposes of this post. His bio which popped up in a search on Google returns this:

  • Tony Jones is an American theologian, author, blogger, and speaker who is a leading figure in the emerging church movement and postmodern Christianity.

As you should be aware, if you’ve bothered to so much as glance over other content at my blog, I often discuss issues pertaining to singleness and marriage, and how Christians do a terrible job teaching about these things, or in supporting celibacy.

From the Christian blog The Wartburg Watch, (link to TWW Home Page), which usually specializes in reporting about spiritual abuse by Christians in churches, here is an excerpt from a post they did in January 19, 2015:

  • Tony Jones divorced his wife in 2009. Julie discovered the affair in 2008
  • His BFF, Doug Pagitt, knew Tony was having an affair and came up with a theological argument to justify Jones’ actions. Jones allegedly told Julie that he had a spiritual™ wife  which took precedence over their marriage because their marriage was simply a legal matter. (2009- one month before official divorce).
  • Julie claims she was assaulted by Jones.
  • Rumors circulated amongst their Emergent group that Julie was mentally ill. She claims that the leaders tried to get her committed to a mental institution.
  • Julie was awarded custody of the children and Jones was given visitation rights.
  • Tony Jones sacramentally (his term) married his new wife in 2011 and legally married her in 2013. They refused to get legally married until gays could get married.

The ex wife, Julie, claims that Tony physically abused her, including throwing her up against a wall, which dislocated her shoulder.

There is much bickering about this whole thing on other sites as to who to believe, Tony (who claims his ex wife is a trouble- making, crack- pot), or Julie (for the record, based on what I’ve seen so far, I tend to believe Julie’s side of things, and she says that Jones was diagnosed as having NPD – link about NPD on health site).

There are other aspects about this I don’t want to get into in my post, such as a conference involving Christian blogger Rachel Held Evans, and how, when, or if Christians in positions of authority use that influence to silence victims, etc etc.

You can go google the rest of the story if you’d like to read more about all this. There are other blogs, Facebook groups, and forums who are discussing this story from multiple angles.

The point most all accounts I’ve seen agree upon is that this Tony guy had an affair, and Tony refers to his mistress (who I believe he is now legally wed to?) as his “spiritual wife.”

This “spiritual wife” line was used to justify or rationalize his extra-marital affair and divorce.

The Bible teaches no such thing as a “spiritual wife.”

Jones is a piss-poor “theologian” if he thinks the Bible teaches the concept of spiritual wives.

That this Jones guy still gets speaking engagements or book deals, in spite of being widely known as an adulterer, speaks quite poorly to the state of affairs or discernment among Christians today.

Continue reading “Christian Personality Uses Lame, Unbiblical Excuse to Rationalize His Adultery – He Calls His Mistress His Spiritual Wife”

New Christian Sex Propaganda: Supposedly Traditional Gender Roles Equals More, Better Sex

New Christian Sex Propaganda: Supposedly Traditional Gender Roles Equals More, Better Sex

August 2015 update: please see this post after you’ve read this one:

(Link):  One key to a happier sex life: Share child care duties equally, new research finds


I give this newest Christian propaganda about sex the same weight as I do other forms of previous Christian sex propaganda, such as, “if you wait until marriage to have sex, the sex will be spectacular and regular.”

Well, that has turned out not to be true, based on all the Christian (and some Non Christian) people I’ve read about or seen on TV who say they were virgins until marriage, and then the sex was lousy or dwindled down to zero times a month (see this link for examples).

By the way, as you can see from my link that has many examples, Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread), married Christian sex does not keep married Christian men (and sometimes wives) from having affairs, raping people, using porn, or paying for prostitutes.

If being a married Christian – whether complementarian or egalitarian regarding gender roles – kept married couples immune from sexual sin, you would not see the sort of news stories I keep track of in that post, of married couples being porn addicts, having affairs, and using prostitutes.

At least a few Christians were quoted in this who did not agree.

Here we go:
(Link): Gender Roles in Marriage (Part1): Couples in Traditional Marriage Roles Have More Sex, Study Finds

    February 17, 2014|10:29 am

  • A recent study suggests that married couples will have more sex and be less likely to divorce if they assume more traditional gender roles where the husband does 40 percent of the housework and the wife earns 40 percent of the income. Some experts disagree, however, over whether or not the study supports these gender roles within a Christian a marriage.
  • “I don’t do theology by polling, but I’m glad to cite any study that shows God’s blessing of following His plan for men and women,” said Owen Strachan, vice president of The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. “This particular study gives evidence that there definitely are differences between men and women – that men are called to provide and there’s a certain mystery to manhood that draws women,” Strachan told The Christian Post in a recent interview.
  • … Mimi Haddad, president of (Link): Christians for Biblical Equality, vehemently disagrees. “Biology is not destiny; following Christ is destiny,” Haddad declared in an interview with CP on Wednesday.
  • Haddad asserts that “marriage today is more about self-satisfaction and self-gratification, whereas in earlier days it was about serving the world, serving God.” Rather than worrying about how much fun they will have in the bedroom, Christians should focus on maximizing their service to God and others.
  • …Mark Yarhouse, a Christian expert on sexual identity and author of Understanding Sexual Identity: A Resource for Youth Ministry, explains that “our culture is a little caught up on sexual activity.” He mentioned worldwide studies that reveal the value of sexual egalitarianism for intimacy.
  • Yarhouse cited Edward Laumann’s sexual survey involving 27,000 people across the world, investigating “nations where there are pretty rigid cultural norms verses more egalitarian social norms.” In such broad studies, Yarhouse reported, “you are seeing greater satisfaction in the countries that would be more likely to be egalitarian.” People in such societies tend to be interested in satisfying the desires of both partners, so the quality of intimacy is greater.
  • “When you’re in a culture where men are more traditional and those gaps are more significant, you may have practices and habits that are less fulfilling to the female,” Yarhouse explained.

Note that this article quotes Strachan, who is a sexist.

To read one rebuttal of some of his views, please see this link (from Rachel Held Evans – whom I disagree with on some topics, but I am totally with her on the gender complementarian topic):

(Link): If men got the Titus 2 Treatment… (on Rachel Held Evan’s blog, addressing a blog post by Owen Strachan)

Anyhoooooo. It’s fascinating that Christians feel the need to keep pouring on incentives to stop people from fooling around outside of marriage.

Christians can’t just quote the parts of the Bible that say fornication is a no-no, they have to quote studies that claim your married sex life will be rocking if only you do “X” or avoid “Z.”

Or, this may be serving to bolster sexist “biblical womanhood” and gender complementarian unbiblical nonsense.

One great thing about getting off the Baptist and evangelical merry-go-round is not having to give a crap about these things so much. I don’t let them guide my life anymore. But I do feel sad and offended for people still sucked into these world views and lifestyles.
Related posts this blog:

(Link):  One key to a happier sex life: Share child care duties equally, new (2015) research finds

(Link): False Christian Hype About Waiting Until Marriage For Sex – We’ve Gone From “It’s Mindblowing” to Now: “It’s Magical” Re: Timothy Keller / Tim Keller Virginity Celibacy Singles PreMarital Sex

(Link): Problems Created by Conservative Christian Teachings About Virginity, Sex, and Marriage: Christian Couple Who Were Virgins At Marriage Are Experiencing Sexual Problems – Re: UnVeiled Wife (Marriage does not guarantee great sex)

(Link): Christian Stereotypes About Female Sexuality : All Unmarried Women Are Supposedly Hyper Sexed Harlots – But All Married Ones are Supposedly Frigid or Totally Uninterested in Sex

(Link): Do men really have higher sex drives than women? (article/study)

(Link): AARP post: How to Handle a Sexless Married Life – But Christians Promise You Great Hot Regular Married Sex

(Link): Gotta Maintain that Propaganda that Married Christian Sex is “Mind Blowing”

(Link): More Married Couples Admit to Sexless Marriages (various articles) / Christians promise you great frequent sex if you wait until marriage, but the propaganda is not true

Christians Who Can’t Agree on Who The Old Testament Is For and When or If It Applies

Christians Who Can’t Agree on Who The Old Testament Is For and When or If It Applies

I usually blog about my views about singleness and marriage, but as I find myself questioning the Christian faith, I sometimes like to make the occasional posts about that too.

Even though I sort of find myself not entirely grasping the Christian faith any longer (I am somewhere between agnostic and Christian), my understanding of spiritual matters or the Bible tend to be consistent with an orthodox (note the little “o” – I have actually had people confuse “orthodox” with “Greek Orthodox” – no, I do not mean “orthodox” as in the “Greek Orthodox” church or denomination) and conservative views and understandings.

As far as that goes, I believe in sola scriptura – but not in what I have deemed “hyper sola scriptura.”

God sometimes spoke to believers in the Old and New Testaments via inward thoughts of the Holy Spirit, via angelic messengers, dreams, handwriting on walls, prophets, via creation (ie, nature, as the book of Romans mentions), etc.

I see nothing in the New Testament which says God halted using any and all extra-scriptural means to communicate with followers of Jesus.

I do believe that Christians should check their beliefs against the written word, and if their dream, vision, or belief conflicts with the written word, they need to really reconsider it. (I have written about things like this before, like in this post: (Link): Contemporary American Christianity’s Fascination with NDE Stories – and in one or two other posts.)

What annoys me are the “hyper sola scriptura” type of Christians who automatically brush off, or brush aside, the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let’s say you are a Christian who’s going through a tough time, and you prayed about it, and you felt God spoke to you inwardly and told you something about your situation, or God spoke some word of comfort. I believe something like that is orthodox and not un-scriptural.

I believe God the Holy Spirit can and does still communicate with people that way – but your hyper sola scripture-ist will scoff at that.

Many of the HSSs are probably tempted to chalk something like that up to superstition or believe it borders on WoF (Word of Faith) theology (I do not agree with WoF, by the way).

Do I think some Christians are too quick to attribute a thought or feeling to God, or that they don’t read the Bible enough, and that this can be dangerous or problematic and lead to Christians accepting false beliefs or teachings? Yes.

But it still remains God gifted believers with the Holy Spirit to guide them at times, because sometimes, the Bible is not always crystal clear on some topics, or does not explicitly mention others.

The Bible does not, for example, instruct people on which college they should attend, what they should major in, and what career they should pursue after graduating, and those are all fairly serious life questions.

You cannot flip to Galatians chapter 4 or Hebrews chapter 2 to find a ‘biblical’ answer to the question, “What career should I enter into?”

One of the things I find odd about HSSs (Hyper Sola Scripturists) is that they almost seem – like atheists – to deny the supernatural.

I mean, HSSs will admit to belief in supernatural events already recorded in the Bible, such as Jesus being born of a virgin and Jesus walking on water, but they behave as though God never, ever, interferes in a miraculous way in the world today, and I see nothing in the Bible that says He does not.

I’m not even talking about “speaking in tongues.” You have Christians today who fuss and bicker about “is that gift for today or not?” I don’t know if that gift is for today or not, but that sort of thing is not really what I am discussing in this post.

Continue reading “Christians Who Can’t Agree on Who The Old Testament Is For and When or If It Applies”

Sometimes the Bible is Clear – Regarding Rachel Held Evan’s Post

Sometimes the Bible is Clear – Regarding Rachel Held Evan’s Post

Rachel Held Evans recently wrote this post:
(Link): The Bible was ‘Clear’

Her position is that the Bible is not always clear as Christians think or say or believe it to be.

Sometimes I agree with Mrs. Evans, sometimes I don’t. This is one of those “in between” times where I am sympathetic to her overall point but feel she’s in danger of tipping over, too.

Let me start with giving you an excerpt from her post that she published last night or today, so you can see what her motives are:

    In 1982:
    “The Bible clearly teaches, starting in the tenth chapter of Genesis and going all the way through, that God has put differences among people on the earth to keep the earth divided.” – Bob Jones III, defending Bob Jones University’s policy banning interracial dating/marriage. The policy was changed in 2000.

Mrs. Evans goes on to list several more examples, where some Christian or another from 100 or more years ago wrote a statement that most Christians today would likely agree is wrong, scientifically incorrect, or racist, or what have you, a comment that said Christian insisted the Bible was “clear on.”

As someone who was raised in a home and church that taught gender complementarianism, and I used to be gender complmenetarian myself but am no longer one, I can see how, yes, sometimes a person can believe the Bible is very clear on a topic, even though there may be other Bible verses or passages that negate or contradict one’s views.

For example, a lot of Christian gender complmentarians only pay attention to two or three verses in the New Testament – the ones that talk about a woman being silent in church, the one where Paul says he does not permit a woman to teach, and so on – and not only do gender complementarians ignore key words within such favored verses, but they have a nasty tendency to ignore the examples that contradict their views – such as the existence of Junia the female apostle in the New Testament; Deborah, who was a leader over the nation Israel; and that Paul elsewhere says that women may prophesy – which requires women to open their mouth and speak, and not remain silent in church, or anywhere else.

Your average gender complementarian, however, will bang a fist on a desk and insist vehemently that the Bible is abundantly clear that no woman may ever teach, lead, or be a preacher or apostle, despite the fact the Bible contains examples of women doing those very things, and with God’s approval.

(For more on those particular gender complementarian issues, please see:
(Link): LOST IN TRANSLATION Part 2 – A Look at 1 Timothy 2:12-15 (off site link; hosted on Junia Project)
(Link): Why I’m an Egalitarian (off site link) )

Contrary to what gender complementarians think, the Bible is not clear or cut- and- dried, once- for- all about whether women can and should be preachers and so on.

I think Christians such as Evans need to be equally aware that it can be problematic and sloppy, however, to make the Bible out to be completely fuzzy and vague on any and all topics, as though the entirety of the Bible is up for grabs and can be defined in any old way.

That the Bible can be hard to understand on some points is true does not mean that one cannot figure out what God thinks or believes about other topics.

When people approach the Bible with a pet doctrine in mind, or with an agenda, they will not take the biblical text for what it really says, but attempt to find “loop holes” that negate the verses they do not like, or to give alternate interpretations that fit their pre-made conclusions of what they WISH the text said.

Continue reading “Sometimes the Bible is Clear – Regarding Rachel Held Evan’s Post”

False Christian Hype About Waiting Until Marriage For Sex – We’ve Gone From “It’s Mindblowing” to Now: “It’s Magical” Re: Timothy Keller / Tim Keller Virginity Celibacy Singles PreMarital Sex

False Christian Hype About Waiting Until Marriage For Sex: We’ve Gone From “It’s Mindblowing” to Now: “It’s Magical” Re: Timothy Keller

Timothy Keller is a preacher or Christian author. He released the following You Tube video, which I have not watched:
(Link): Why Is Sex Outside Of Marriage So Destructive?

I did, however, scan an article or two about that video where it is discussed and Keller is interviewed. I can only agree with one or two ideas he puts forth, but the line that “it’s worth it because the sex is magical” is rather ludicrous.

From The Christian Post, entitled:
Timothy Keller Waxes Poetic About the ‘Magic’ and Pleasures of Sex in Marriage


    November 27, 2013|2:55 pm

    NYC megachurch pastor and influential author Timothy Keller was recently asked “why sex outside of marriage is so destructive” and in his response spoke personally about the intimacy he has enjoyed with his wife over the years.

    It's Magical
    It’s Magical

    “Sex inside of a committed marriage is magic,” said Keller. “It’s like blowing on the coals of this incredible beautiful and powerful flame. Sex outside of marriage is just a way of not giving yourself, but of receiving fulfillment and pleasure.”

    … “Sex inside marriage, where you’re not so much taking as giving…I can just say personally, after years and years of doing this with my wife, one woman, it becomes sweeter and more pleasurable and more powerful and more transforming as the years go by, even when actually neither of you look as good as you did before,” he said.

    … The New York City pastor has also talked extensively on the subject of sex, including on whether there is a commandment in the Bible against premarital sex.

Plenty of Christian and Non Christian fornicators will also claim that pre-marital sex is “magical,” “beautiful” and so forth.

Saying married sex is “beautiful” is just a twist on the Christian sex propaganda that staying a virgin until marriage will lead to “mind blowing” sex, which is a total lie. Plenty of people who are virgins until marriage have lousy, mediocre, or non existent sex lives. See other links on this blog for examples.

Related link, off site:

(Link): Tim Keller reflects on why sex before marriage is wrong and unwise.

One of the few portions I agree with is as follows (and mirrors one point I am always going on about):

    The modern sexual revolution find the idea of abstinence till marriage to be so unrealistic as to be ludicrous. In fact, many people believe it is psychologically unhealthy and harmful. Yet despite the contemporary incredulity, this has been the unquestioned uniform teaching of not only one but all of the Christian churches—Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant.

The following link. Notice articles and debates about this topic do not even mention older Chrisitan virgins (people over age 30 who are still virgins) – the focus remains on teens and 20 somethings, as though we 30 year old and 40 year old, and older, virgins face no sexual struggles at all:

(Link): Tim Keller, Rachel Held Evans, and the Virginity of Young Christians, from touchstonemag


    She [Rachel Held Evans, emergent Christian blogger] took offense to what Keller said and wrote the following:

      I’m often asked to speak on the topic of why young people leave the church. This. This is why young people leave the church. Because our questions aren’t taken seriously, because our value tends to be linked inextricably to our virginity, because our ideas are dismissed as silly.

    I want to address one piece of what Rachel had to say. “[O]ur value tends to be linked inextricably to our virginity . . .”

    To argue that the church has made something of a fetish out of virginity for young people is to essentially argue against the lordship of Christ and against the value of sexual purity.

    When you are in high school and college, sex is the prime locus of the fight for sanctification. It is the battle that is appropriate to the age.

    You are on the edge of marriage during those years.

    In the Christian understanding, sex is a marital act.

    It is fitting that you and your spouse should have it in common only with each other. To remain a virgin prior to marriage is to align oneself consciously with God and the church in viewing ourselves as uniquely and wonderfully human (in the image of God).

—(end article excerpt)—

Regarding this comment by the author:

    You are on the edge of marriage during those years.

No, you’re not.

Age of first marriage in the USA has shot up from early or mid 20s to late 20s.

Some Christians don’t marry ’til they are age 40ish, if at all.

The rest of the page I pretty much agree with, if considering things from a biblical view.

Although I totally reject gender complementarianism, as does RHE (Rachel Held Evans).

Someone in the comment section at that touchstonemag.com blog was complaining that RHE “mocks” complementarianism, as well she should, because it’s not biblical, and complementarianism is nothing but Christian-sponsored sexism under a religious coating.

I found this comment interesting and very true for older Christian virgins:

    Michael Bauman says:
    APRIL 16, 2013 AT 4:59 PM
    What I see from my own son, committed to a life of chastity and purity is his continuing frustration at being given no tools to fight the good fight: the frequent animus he faces from non-Christians of his peer group (and even some Christians).
    He just wants to find a job and live a simple productive life and yet being Christian interfers with that goal. He dosen’t feel as if he fits anywhere.

That commentator is absolutely right on: the person who is trying to remain chaste gets NO SUPPORT from secular or Christian culture, but will actually face persecution and criticism for remaining a virgin, even by other Christians.
Related posts this blog:

(Link): New Christian Sex Propaganda: Supposedly Traditional Gender Roles Equals More, Better Sex

(Link): Marriage Doesn’t Necessarily Guarantee Great Sex or Any At All

(Link): No Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity (they actually ATTACK it, not support either one)

(Link): Article: ‘Getting to the Root of Female Masturbation’ / Also: Woman Who Was Virgin Until Wedding Night Now Gets next to No Sex in Marriage

(Link): Why So Much Fornication – Because Christians Have No Expectation of Sexual Purity

(Link): Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re Celibacy

(Link): Pastor Busted in Prostitution Sting – If Married Sex So Great Why Do So Many Married Christian Men Have Affairs

(Link): Wife of Preacher Shoots, Kills Him, Recounts Years of Physical and Sexual Abuse – So Much for the Equally Yoked Teaching and the Notion that Christian married sex is Mind Blowing

(Link): Ex-mega church IFB pastor (who is married) Jack Schaap gets 12 years in teen sex scandal – if Christian married sex so great and magical and mindblowing why did this 50 something year old preacher cheat on his 50 yr old wife with a 16 year old girl

(Link): More Married Couples Admit to Sexless Marriages (various articles) / Christians promise you great frequent sex if you wait until marriage, but the propaganda is not true

(Link): Why Christians Need to Uphold Lifelong Celibacy as an Option for All Instead of Merely Pressuring All to Marry – vis a vis Sexless Marriages, Counselors Who Tell Marrieds that Having Affairs Can Help their Marriages

(Link): Getting Married Does Not Necessarily Guarantee Frequent Hot Satisfying Sexy Sex – Husband is Sexless for Eight Years (article)

(Link): Married Woman Signing off as “Looking Ahead” Admits to Being in Sexless Marriage for TEN YEARS

(Link): Wife Writes to Ask Amy About Her Sexless Marriage October 2013

(Link): Her Marriage is Sexless While She Cares For Sick Elderly Father

(Link): On Marrying a Survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse – lady married to man who was abused as kid goes without sex (article)

(Link): Gotta Maintain that Propaganda that Married Christian Sex is “Mind Blowing”

(Link): Rebound Guy and No Sex

Interesting Links Re Christianity and Gender Roles (A.K.A. Church and Christian Approved Sexism)

Interesting Links Re Christianity and Gender Roles (AKA Church and Christian Approved Sexism)

This is a very good editorial:
(Link): Feminism vs Egalitarianism

(Link): Friday Challenge: Guess The Year [‘How Feminine Am I’ sexist and out-dated check list used by Baptist churches] – Stuff Fundies Like blog

Next link. Regarding the nutso Quiverfull-ish, Doug Phillips, Vision Forusm-ish sexist beliefs of treating women like unthinking chattel and keeping them at home with their fathers, even if they don’t marry into adulthood:

(Link): Sleeping Beauty and the Five Questions, Part 1: Blurring the Lines (TBB) – from Scarlet Letters blog


    My main concern, however, with the vision of SAHD [Stay At Home Daughters] laid out in [Phillips’ version of] Sleeping Beauty is that it seems to progressively break down healthy boundaries in father-daughter relationships.

    … In Sleeping Beauty, however, it becomes clear that “helpmeet” is only one example of a more extensive terminology shift. Fathers are said to “court” and “woo” their daughters and ultimately “win their hearts.”

(Link): Dan Kirby Kopp, 45, was found guilty of beating his wife with a spoon [for not addressing him as “sir” and other stupid crap]

    The video shows Kopp showing her [his wife] the spoon and giving her a ‘count of three to comply’ with his demand of addressing him with a ‘yes, sir’ in front of the couple’s children.

    He is also heard threatening to ‘cast the demons out of her’ next time she disobeyed him.

(Link): “A Year of Biblical Womanhood” Genre Cheat Sheet Rachel Held Evans’ blog

I don’t agree with what appears to be that blog’s rejection of biblical sexual ethics, or disregard for people who have remained virgins into adulthood, in favor of sugarcoating biblical sexual teachings so as to soothe the consciences of women who say they feel shamed or get hurt hearing that pre-marital sex is sinful according to the Bible, but I do agree with the blog’s disdain for biblical gender complementarianism.

Guest comments at that page (and I agree with these comments):

    My favourite is their “committee” page [the writer may be referring to the gender complementarian group CBMW] where each women’s career is labelled “homemaker” and then proceeds to list all the conferences she will be attending for the next 12 months – I added up one of the women’s ‘away’ dates and figured the only way she could be a ‘homemaker’ was if she lived in a motor home.


    Christina Steve Dawson • 7 hours ago −

    I suspect this is true. Otherwise they would have noticed years ago the irony of women building careers in which they travel, write, and speak, all for the purpose of convincing other women not to have careers.


    Rachel Held Evans Mod Christina • 7 hours ago −

    Oh my gosh! This DRIVES ME CRAZY! I went to this “biblical womanhood” conference a couple years ago where many of the attendees were professional women with careers. And the speaker – a professional woman herself – proceeded to dis on feminism as an anti-biblical worldview…starting with second wave feminism and using Mary Tyler Moore as an example of a first step away from biblical womanhood. It was so confusing

Related posts this blog

(Link): Christian Culture and Daddy Daughter Dates

Sometimes Shame Guilt and Hurt Feelings Over Sexual Sins Is a Good Thing – but – Emergents, Liberals Who Are Into Virgin and Celibate Shaming

Sometimes Shame Guilt and Hurt Feelings Over Sexual Sins Is a Good Thing

If I see one more “Christian” writer blogging or podcasting about how Christians need to abandon virginity- until- marriage (a.k.a. sexual purity or celibacy) teachings and standards, which are biblical, I may puke.

It has become quite de rigueur in some Christian circles to bash virginity and celibacy these days.

Oddly, Christian emergents, such as Rachel Held Evans, post-Evangelical or ex-Christian writers, and some spiritual abuse bloggers, who usually try to be hyper-sensitive to people’s feelings, who will twist themselves into pretzels to defend homosexuals or homosexuality, will hypocritically often give no thought to trampling on the feelings of adult, Christian hetero virgins.

I would imagine that adult, Christian homosexual virgins might be offended by some of this same rhetoric aimed against celibacy sexual purity, and virginity as well; there are some Christians who have S.S.A., same sex attraction [homosexual leanings], but who have chosen to stay celibate.

How do you suppose the rants against sexual purity teachings and the whole-scale acceptance of homosexual behavior by fellow Christians makes them feel? I guess their feelings do not matter because they don’t neatly fit into the little politically correct box of the Christian homosexual agenda pushers?

I have a lot of respect for Christian homosexuals/SSA who are abstaining from sexual activity, who are celibate, due to allegiance to biblical teachings about sex. (And they do exist. I periodically come across an interview with Christian homosexual/SSA celibates on Christian podcast shows or in blogs.)

Some emergents and theologically/doctrinally liberal Christians go so far as to defend fornication (both homo and hetero varieties) and to advocate it, never mind bashing virginity and celibacy, such as:
(Link): Emergent Christian Guy Says Christians Need to “Celebrate Pre Marital Sex” (Fornication)

I recall reading a small article several years ago in a secular paper about secular culture. The author (and I’ve no idea what her religious views were), said part of the problem with American (secular) culture is that we have lost our sense of shame. I agree with this assessment.

The author said one reason we see so much trash and vulgarity in the media, why we see pop singers dancing around half naked on music shows, is that people have lost their sense of shame – and that is not always a good thing.

I portend the same thing has happened in Christian culture the last five or more years, especially when it comes to sex related sin.

Some Christians have been arguing on their blogs, books, magazine articles, in pod casts, and on radio shows, that Christians should cease from upholding biblical teachings on celibacy and virginity because such teachings (and the standards themselves) make people who have engaged in pre-marital sex (aka fornication) feel ashamed, guilty, bad, or flawed.

As a 40 something, hetero virgin -I chose to remain a virgin until marriage- I find this most puzzling.

I have managed to do what most Christians assume is the impossible: stayed a virgin into my 40s; obviously, I prove a person can live without sex.

No, I do not have a low libido; no I am not fat and ugly; yes I have been engaged to a man; yes, I have been flirted with and hit on by men (I am not ugly and fat).

I’m having a hard time seeing why Biblical teachings on sexual ethics should be tossed aside or ignored, merely because some have not lived up to those ethics, or that some who fornicated feel shameful or guilty when they hear such ethics taught.

I can just imagine if people who claim to be Christ followers used that criteria in other areas of life and sin:

    “Hi, my name is John Doe. I enjoy being a serial killer! I love strangling women to death. Every time I hear a Christian preacher mention that murder of humans is a sin, it makes me feel so guilty and ashamed. I think we should all just accept that some people like to murder, they cannot help it, and well, you Christians should drop that teaching to accomodate me and my feelings. I was born with these urges to kill. I have a need to kill. Respect my inclination to murder, and don’t judge me or make me feel ashamed for it.”

If your guilt or shame over murdering another person – or stealing, or having sex before marriage- compels you to cease such behavior, then I think that is a plus, not a minus.

God, if He exists, says in the Bible that He gave humanity consciences, so that when and if you do something wrong, yes, you will feel guilty and ashamed over it.

(Disclaimer: I am not saying someone who commits a sin and repents should feel guilt indefinitely. I’m not talking about “false guilt,” and that carried over a lifetime. These days, I see the opposite: people, including Christians, sadly, who try to hide away from feelings of guilt, shame, and condemnation at all costs.)

Instead of telling homo and hetero singles to go right ahead and feed their sexual desires, why not encourage them to hold on and remain virgins or celibate?

The Bible talks about Christians encouraging other Christians to hold on, hang in there, and complete the race.

The Bible does not tell Christians to tell other Christians, “When the going gets tough, just give up, and give in. Stop the race, go sit on the sideline. Being a virgin is so hard, so cave in, stop fighting it! Everyone else is having sex, so join them.”

However, many emergent Christians are basically carrying the banner for this “Just cave in and do it, then don’t feel guilty or shamed for it!” approach, which seems to be nothing more than the Least Common Denominator Approach, the Low Expectations Approach, or the Quitter Approach, rather than the the Over-comer, or Winner, or I Know You Can Do It approach.

Here is an editorial on the topic of shame:

(Link): Shame Can be Healthy When We Violate God’s Standards

by Trace Embry

There is a common belief among the politically correct “intelligentsia” that shame is not something our kids–or anyone else for that matter–ought to experience.

Even many Christians have bought into this idea.

Scripture; however, seems to make a different case. God has made us, and our kids, with the capacity for many emotions– shame being just one of them.

Confusion about this subject comes when someone attempts to force someone else to feel shame for something that God did not call shameful–like when a young child spills his milk or fails to control his bladder.

Even then, there comes a time and age when even these acts become inappropriate–perhaps even shameful– particularly if done with reckless frequency and without legitimate excuse, i.e., such as a physical or mental condition.

To remind an unrepentant child that he ought to be ashamed of himself for committing some blatant act of foolishness, abuse or other sinful activity can often be just good parenting. Or in the case of two adults, just being a good friend.

Proverbs 27: 6 says, “Wounds from a friend can be trusted; but, an enemy multiplies kisses.” Besides, aren’t there things that we should be ashamed of? The Bible doesn’t have much positive to say about a generation that does not even know how to blush.

Shame is often a component of true conviction which is fundamental to repentance. Shame is a legitimate emotion when God’s standards are violated. We need not be ashamed of who we are, but rather for what we do.

Confusion can also come in when we are made to be ashamed of who we are. Knowing that we are created by God in the image of God should remind us that we should never be ashamed of who we are. As the saying goes, “God does not make junk!” What God has created; however, can create junk–junk that we should be ashamed of creating. And sometimes it takes someone else to remind us that we should feel ashamed for creating it.

When Nathan the prophet told King David, “You are the man.” I doubt he expected David to feel like a winner in that moment. David’s emotions were completely appropriate for that moment.

Shame is actually a good emotion; for, like pain, it is an alarm that tells us something is not right.

And, like pain, it is also a motivator to start heading in the right direction. Feeling no shame is how our society has arrived at its current moral condition.

Pop psychology–not Scripture–is where this notion of shame being a naughty word came from. Views on psychology are continually changing, while God’s Word remains trustworthy through the ages. So, remember that anyone who shames you into believing that shame is a shame is a sham.

Related posts this blog:

(Link): Anti Virginity Editorial by Christian Blogger Tim Challies – Do Hurt / Shame Feelings or Sexual Abuse Mean Christians Should Cease Supporting Virginity or Teaching About Sexual Purity

(Link):  Why Progressive Christians Are Ineffective and Unpersuasive by P. Heck – Also: How Liberals Can Avoid Turning Off Right Wingers

(Link): Scripture vs. the Sexual Deviancy Zeitgeist by M. P. Orsi

(Link): A Renowned German Sexologist Created Foster Homes Run by Pedophiles and the Government Approved by John Sexton (and other authors)

(Link):  Some Researchers Argue that Shame Should Be Used to Treat Sexual Compulsions

(Link): Anti-Porn Activist: ‘Ethically Sourced’ Porn ‘Sounds Like an Oxymoron’

(Link):  CDC Report: Virgin Teens Much Healthier Than Their Sexually Active Peers (2016 Report)

(Link): Confusing Sexual Assault and Sexual Abuse with Consensual Sex and Then Condemning Sexual Purity Teachings – and other, related topics

(Link):  Our Bodies Were Not Made for Sex by T. Swann

(Link): Warning: This Column Will Offend You – by M. Moynihan (Re: Trigger Warnings in Written Material, Terms such as slut shaming, man-splain, etc)

(Link): No, Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity

(Link): Christian Double Standards on Celibacy – Hetero Singles Must Abstain from Sex but Not Homosexual Singles

(Link): Sex, Love & Celibacy by Dan Navin [who is a Christian homosexual celibate]

(Link): Are Most Churches Too Judgemental About Sexual Sin? (of the hetero variety)

(Link): To Get Any Attention or Support from a Church These Days you Have To Be A Stripper, Prostitute, or Orphan

(Link): Virgin – and Celibate – Shaming : Christian Double Standards – Homosexuals Vs Hetero Singles – Concerning Thabiti Anyabwile and Gag Reflexes

(Link): Dude Arguing for Legalization of Prostitution Uses Same Rationale as Christians Concerning Celibacy and Sexual Purity

(Link): The Activist Who Says Being Gay Is Not A Sin – double standards for homo singles vs hetero singles

(Link): Christians Who Attack Virginity Celibacy and Sexual Purity – and specifically Russell D. Moore and James M. Kushiner

(Link): Students Discuss Dissatisfaction with “Hookup Culture” [Casual Sex, Fornication, Pre Marital Sex]

(Link): The ol’ Christian myth that married couples are impervious to sexual sin but singles have lots of sexual sin

(Link): Why So Much Fornication – Because Christians Have No Expectation of Sexual Purity

(Link): Rare Reminders from Christians on Recent Broadcasts that Fornication is Wrong and That Older Celibates Exist

(Link): The Trivialization of Sex (a post by A. Hamilton)

(Link): Confessions of a 25-year-old Christian virgin (article) – and related info

(Link): CDC Reports Rare Lesbian HIV Transmission Case

(Link): Slut Shaming and Virgin Shaming and Secular and Christian Culture – Dirty Water / Used Chewing Gum and the CDC’s Warnings – I guess the CDC is a bunch of slut shamers ?

(Link): The Christian and Non Christian Phenomenon of Virgin Shaming and Celibate Shaming
Related post, off site:

(Link): Same-Sex Marriage and the Single Christian – How marriage-happy churches are unwittingly fueling same-sex coupling—and leaving singles like me in the dust.

Virgin – and Celibate – Shaming : Christian Double Standards – Homosexuals Vs Hetero Singles – Concerning Thabiti Anyabwile and Gag Reflexes

Virgin – and Celibate – Shaming : Christian Double Standards – Homosexuals Vs Hetero Singles – Concerning Thabiti Anyabwile and Gag Reflexes

About two weeks ago, after Thabiti Anyabwile of the Gospel Coalition published a blog page going on about how homosexual sexual acts are (to paraphrase him) “gag worthy,” Christians, particularly emergents, went into an uproar over it, saying how insensitive Anyabwile was being.

A few atheists, whose pastimes include commenting on Christian culture online, also wrote about it to condemn it. Here are a few examples:

(Link): Gag Me – by Michael Kimpan (identifies as Christian)

This is by an atheist (I will not link to his page because I do not want a track back link to appear):

1. Christian Pastor: If We Describe Gay Sex to People, They’ll Turn Against Homosexuality!, by Hema Mehta (identifies as atheist).
The URL is

2. (Link): Responding to homophobia in the Christian community – Rachel Held Evans
(Evans identifies as Christian; she typically blogs against sexual purity / virginity teachings for hetero people, and in favor of showing sensitivity, that in my opinion, borders on full- on acceptance and celebration of homosexuality; I am unclear if she supports homosexuality itself)

3. (Link) Your Gagging Isn’t Loving , from “Alise Write” blog

The current “Alise Write” blog link is not working; try the Cached Page (“Your Gagging Is Not Loving”)

I assume that Alise considers herself a Christian, and she seems to self-identify as “gay affirming.”

There are two issues I take with all the hand-wringing or outrage over the Anyabwile blog page, or any time the liberals and emergents have a fit over any Christian who says or writes anything about homosexuality in less than fully glowing, supportive terms.

First of all, the Bible calls all unmarried people to refrain from having sex, so whether hetero or homosexual, if one claims to be a Christian, one should not be having sex outside of marriage anyway.

Ergo, I’m not sure how pertinent it was for Anyabwile to go into detail about homosexual sex acts (and you bet your sweet bippy he sure did), but it was also not very relevant for the emergents or “gay affirmers” to spaz out over it, either.

I read Anyabwile’s page only once, but so far as I recall, he did not condemn anyone for having SSA (same sex attraction) or homosexual urges/ attractions, but only seemed to criticize them for acting upon those desires (e.g., men actually having anal sex, for instance).

As Christians have believed for centuries that sex outside of marriage is wrong, since that is what the Bible says on the topic, why would anyone disagree with Anyabwile for supporting celibacy for unmarried people, or, to state it in the converse, for not supporting sexual acts outside of marriage?

You can read the blog page that started the kerfuffle here:
(Link): The Importance of Your Gag Reflex When Discussing Homosexuality and “Gay Marriage” by Anyabwile

Anyabwile wrote a follow up here (which I have not read yet):
(Link): On Homosexuality and the Conscience: Responding to Criticisms

My second point.

What I continue to see are emergent, liberal, or overly sensitive, politically correct, conservative Christians clucking in concern over hurting the feelings of homosexuals, but these same groups are fine with attacking virginity among hetero Christians, or virginal Christians themselves.

See, for example, (posts this blog):
(Link): Anti Virginity Editorial by Christian Blogger Tim Challies – Do Hurt / Shame Feelings or Sexual Abuse Mean Christians Should Cease Supporting Virginity or Teaching About Sexual Purity

(Link): Christians Who Attack Virginity Celibacy and Sexual Purity – and specifically Russell D. Moore and James M. Kushiner

(Link): No, Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity

I have yet to see an emergent Christian, liberal Christian, or sensitive conservative Christian, support virginity until marriage as concept (for anyone who is still a virgin past age 25 – 30), or to actually support actual Christian virgins themselves (e.g., churches encouraging families to “adopt” older singles for the holidays so they don’t have to spend holidays alone; spending as much money on singles church services as they do for youth; there are no sermons about singleness, but many on marriage, etc).

On the contrary, the emergents and others – who claim to be Christian – routinely write blog pages criticizing biblical, sexual purity and virginity teachings and morality, blathering on about how “hurtful” they are to women. 🙄

As far as I am concerned, it is a double standard and hypocritical for Christians to clutch their pearl necklaces in concern that a homosexual’s feelings might be hurt over a blog post that talks about “gag reflexes,” or that mentions homosexual acts are sinful, but then sit around, as they do, offending me (an older Christian virgin, who is hetero) by repeatedly stomping all over biblical sexual ethics, and saying virginity means nothing, is over-rated, or is a judgmental concept that Christians should rid themselves of.

This gets into the general problem I have with Christians and hypocrisy in the realm of compassion:

Just as some Christians will only show empathy for starving African orphans or homeless crack addicts, but will judge and condemn the “Average Joe” Christian who is going through a nasty divorce, a cancer scare, or a death in the family, the emergents and touchie-feelie-for-homosexual Christians (sometimes they are one in the same), only extend compassion and respect for one group – homosexuals being criticized by Christians – but show none for mature virginal Christians who are and have been criticized by Christians. I have written about this before:
(Link): To Get Any Attention or Support from a Church These Days you Have To Be A Stripper, Prostitute, or Orphan

Here is a thoughtful response that critiques Rachel Held Evan’s post (by Jeff G.):
(Link): Rachel Held Evans – Is the gag reflex a legitimate moral compass?

I agree with Jeff G’s critique in that RHE was incorrect in hers to suggest it is wrong to define an entire group of people based upon their sexual acts, when in fact, that is what many vocal homosexuals in the “rights” groups have been doing to and for themselves for decades now. Quoting Jeff G:

    Again, if Anyabwile were really saying this it would indeed be problematic. Nowhere does he suggest that copulation fully defines homosexuals any more than it defines heterosexuals. Ironically, it is the GLBTQ community itself that has posited sex acts and sexuality as the basis of identity differentiation.

As for the homosexuality debate itself, I do not trust or respect the militants. Please note I used the term “militants.”

I don’t have a problem with ordinary homosexuals who simply live out their lives quietly like the rest of us, but I am talking about the intolerant ones who are consumed with forcing their views and sexuality on to other people.

Here are a few reasons below why I do not support, respect, or agree with the militant homosexuality supporters or the movement itself; has Rachel Held Evans, the Friendly Atheist, or any other “gay affirming” emergents condemned this sort of behavior by homosexual activists? If not, why not?

(Link): NSFW photos, adult males nude engaged in sex acts in public – Folsom Street Homosexual Fair in San Fran, from Zombie’s blog
(NOTE: the link I am giving you above will send you to a “warning” page that asks you to click a certain link if you are age 18 or above; there is no nudity on that particular page itself)

(Link): Gay Couple to Sue Church of England to Force It to Perform Gay Weddings (Coming soon to America?)

(Link): How “Gay Rights” is Being Sold to America

(Link): Americans For Truth About Homosexuality

Dan Savage is a homosexual activist:

(Link): Anti-bullying advocate Dan Savage wishes cancer on Sarah Palin

(Link): It gets better? ‘Anti-bullying’ bully Dan Savage bashes ‘batsh*t’ Bachmann; Heal thyself, dude

(Link): Stand Up to Dan Savage’s Bullying

(Link): Dan Savage Bullies Christian Teens in Speech at Anti-Bullying Conference, Says to Ignore “Bull****” in the Bible
Related links this blog:

(Link): Christian Double Standards on Celibacy – Hetero Singles Must Abstain from Sex but Not Homosexual Singles

(Link): When Adult Virginity and Adult Celibacy Are Viewed As Inconvenient or As Impediments

(Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group (CBMW) Anti Virginity and Anti Sexual Purity Stance (At Least Watered Down) – and their Anti Homosexual Marriage Position
Related post, off site:

(Link): Same-Sex Marriage and the Single Christian – How marriage-happy churches are unwittingly fueling same-sex coupling—and leaving singles like me in the dust.

Pastor Busted in Prostitution Sting – If Married Sex So Great Why Do So Many Married Christian Men Have Affairs

And Christians continue to suspect older single Christians of being horn dogs or sex crazed harlots, when we’re abstaining sexually. Meanwhile, married Christian preachers are viewing porn, raping women, or seeking prostitutes.

My question for Christians out there who push the mantra that “wait until marriage for sex because the sex will be great.” If married sex is so damn great, why do I regularly see stories about MARRIED men, including MARRIED PASTORS, having sex with prostitutes, looking at porn, having affairs? Should these idiots not be satisfied with their wives alone if Christian propaganda about sex and marriage is true?

And so much for the trope that single women seek out married men to have sex with them: the reverse is often true, married men go out looking for women to hit on, married or single.

(Link): Married pastor jailed in prostitution sting

    Pastor Carlos Feliciano of One Way Family Church in St. Cloud pulled over and asked the woman ‘working the streets’ for a full body massage, the arrest report stated, reports the Orlando Sentinel.

    When the ‘streetwalker,’ who was an undercover cop, then asked the 37-year-old pastor if he was offering her $60 for sex, he reportedly said he “wanted everything,” the arrest affidavit stated, reports the Orlando Sentinel.

    Feliciano’s wife, who is also his fellow pastor at the church, got the bad news when she showed up at the police headquarters — along with other family members — to file a missing person’s report, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

(Link): Pastor of One Way Family Church in St. Cloud arrested in prostitution sting

    After some banter with the woman on the corner — who was police Sgt. Dhalyn Lakey — Carlos Feliciano, pastor of One Way Family Church in St. Cloud, said he “wanted everything” when she asked if he was offering her $60 for sex, the arrest report stated.

    She told Feliciano to drive around the corner to meet her on 15th Street, where the evangelical minister with a congregation on Commerce Center Drive found himself surrounded by police officers and charged with purchasing prostitution services, records show.

    “Carlos stated that when he approached the female (UC) he was initially looking for a body rub and when the female asked him if he wanted sex, he said, ‘Yes,'” a detective wrote. “Carlos told me, ‘I failed.'”

(Link): Pastor Busted in Prostitution Sting After Allegedly Offering $60 for Full Body Rub and ‘Everything’

    A pastor’s family who couldn’t find him hours after he was last seen handing out fliers and visiting churches last Friday were shocked to discover he had been stewing in jail for allegedly offering an undercover cop $60 for a full body rub and “everything.”

    The pastor, Carlos Feliciano, 37, of One Way Family Church in St. Cloud, Fla., was so ashamed of his indiscretion that he refused to call his family for help after cops busted him.

    According to the Orlando Sentinel, Feliciano allegedly circled undercover police officer Sgt. Dhalyn Lakey repeatedly as she stood on 13th Street in St. Cloud last Friday afternoon until he approached her after about 10 minutes and requested the full body massage.

    …Caught in the embarrassing bind, Feliciano chose to forego his phone call to alert his family of his predicament. His wife is reportedly a fellow pastor at the One Way Family Church.

    His secret, however, didn’t hold for long as his wife and concerned family showed up at the police headquarters at about 6 p.m. on Friday ready to file a missing person report for the pastor.

I Don’t Care That The Millennials Are Leaving Church – Churches Ignore Age 40 Forties 40+ Generation X Mid Life

I Don’t Care That The Millennials Are Leaving Church

I am in the minority.

Every time I visit a Christian news site, I see post after post lamenting that the 20-somethings are bailing on church or the Christian faith.

And I don’t care if the Millennials are leaving church and don’t see why other Christians are so worked up over this.

I am Generation X. I am sandwiched between the annoying “Baby Boomers” (sorry for any Baby Boomers visiting this blog page, but yes, I am sick and tired of hearing about your generation) and the “Millennials.”

I don’t care about either group.

I grew up having to hear – in the 1980s, and into the 1990s, and to the present – constant media fixation on “Baby Boomers,” and their rock music tastes, them having kids when they started families of their own, all the music in TV commercials was taken from their music era (up until about ten years ago), and the last five years, all I hear about in the news is their failing health, how they are preparing for retirement, yada yada.

If not Baby Boomers, the media obsess over today’s 20-somethings (“The Millennials”).

Rarely do I see news articles in secular or Christian press about today’s 40 somethings (Generation X).

There is nothing unique about today’s Millennials.

We Generation-Xers grew up being heavily marketed to as well.

The only differences between Gen X and Millennials is that Gen X did not have Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and cell phones (we had land lines and M t.v. [Music Television]), and we had to work to earn our A’s in school (in my day, you had to earn a trophy; teachers did not hand out trophies for EVERYONE on a team just for showing up).

But there are some similarities between the two groups. Gen X can also sniff out bullshit marketing messages, not just Millennials, as Millennials so proudly claim (in their essays about why they are disenchanted with church, the Millennials are typically like, “We Mils are so hip and clever, we can see through marketing ploys”) – there is nothing special or clever about Millennials in this regard.

Emergent Christian blogger RHE (Evans) recently published yet another “Why are the Millennials Leaving Churches” essay a couple of weeks ago, which unfortunately triggered the appearance of a billion more blog pages by Average Joe’s and professional Christian bloggers and news sites alike (such as The Christian Post) about the topic.

I refer you to this blog’s one stop topic thread about the Christian community’s continued ageism and obsession with 20-somethings and teen agers:

(Link): Links about the never ending obsession with why the kids are bailing on church (one stop thread on this blog, with new links added August 2013)

Only so far that today’s twenty- somethings have the same criticisms of church that the 30-, 40-, and 50- somethings have do I care what they have to say. Other than that…

Enough with media coverage about the 20-somethings! Stop it. I am sick of it. There are also Christians in their 30s, 40s, and older who are leaving church, but I see no where the amount of worry and concern over them.

Another site:
(Link): Why Are Millennials Leaving the Church? The Narcissism Factor

Another site:
(Link): Dear Millennials: Shut Up. Sincerely, Gen X – GENERATION X HAD IT TOUGH TOO: MAT HONAN

    Mat Honan has a message seemingly directed at the current generation occupying Wall Street and feeling sorry for itself: “Generation X is sick of your bullshit.” A recent New York article claimed this might be the first generation to end up worse off than its parents: “Please. Been there,” retorts Honan on Gizmodo. “Generation X was told that so many times that it can’t even read those words without hearing Winona Ryder’s voice in its heads.”

    “Generation X is tired of your sense of entitlement,” he continues. After all, that generation also graduated during a recession, suffered through crappy jobs, and lost money in the dot-com bust, all while actually paying for its music. Today, “Generation X is tired,” Honan concludes. It “wishes it had better health insurance and a deeper savings account.” Mostly, it wants a minute to be left alone to think and have a beer. “Can you just do that, OK? It knows that you are so very special and so very numerous, but can you just leave it alone? Just for a little bit?”

This was written by a Mil who is telling other Mils to STFU, so I find this refreshing:

(Link): How to keep Millennials in the church? Let’s keep church un-cool. by By Brett McCracken


    I’m a Millennial, but I am weary of everyone caring so much about why Millennials do this or don’t do that. I’m sorry Millennials, but I’m going to have to throw us under the bus here: we do not have everything figured out. And if we expect older generations and well-established institutions to morph to fit our every fickle desire, we do so at our peril.

    …Millennials: why don’t we take our pastors, parents, and older Christian brothers and sisters out to coffee and listen to them? Perhaps instead of perpetuating our sense of entitlement and Twitter/blog/Instagram-fueled obsession with hearing ourselves speak, we could just shut up for a minute and listen to the wisdom of those who have gone before?

    And for pastors, church leaders, and others so concerned with the survival of the church amidst the glut of “adapt or die!” hype, is asking Millennials what they want church to be and adjusting accordingly really your best bet? Are we really to believe that today’s #hashtagging, YOLO-oriented, selfie-obsessed generation of Millennials has more wisdom to offer about the church than those who have thought about and faithfully served the church decade after decade, amidst all its warts, challenges and ups and down?

    … But a deeper problem is that Christianity has become too obsessed with how it is perceived. Just like the Photoshop-savvy Millennials she is so desperate to retain, the church is ever more meticulously concerned with her image, monitoring what people are saying about her and taking cues from that.

    Erik Thoennes, professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Biola University, is troubled by the church’s obsession with perception.
    “We’ve got experts who tell us ‘this is how pagans think about us, Oh no!’ and we wring our hands and say ‘we’re so lame!’” said Thoennes.

    “This perception-driven way of doing things will make you go crazy. We’re junior highers. Junior highers live in this world of ‘how am I being perceived’ all the time. Oh to be free from that!”

    Much of this is an outgrowth of the audience-is-sovereign mentality of the seeker-sensitive movement, which has loomed large in evangelicalism’s recent history. Another part of it is Christianity’s capitulation to a consumerist culture where the primary goal is to scratch where the market itches.

Related posts this blog

(Link): Mature Christians Need to Stop Allowing the Under 30 Crowd to Direct the Entire State of Christian Affairs

(Link): Youth Fixation in Churches and how it alienates older Christians

(Link): Refreshing: Christian Researcher Disputes that Youths Are Leaving Churches in Droves, Disagrees that Churches Should Be Family Focused

(Link) Pandering to the Youth – Parallel Between Politics and Contemporary Christianity

(Link): Christians and Ageism – Under Age 15 Favored / Declining Youth Church Memership

(Link): Churches Idolize Youth But Do Nothing to Protect Them