On Not Filtering Every Choice Through the Bible

On Not Filtering Every Choice Through the Bible

This is one of those topics I’m working my way through right now. Maybe a year from now, my opinion will flip on it. But here is where I am now.

I was first made aware of this post from John Piper’s “Desiring God” web site via someone posting to SCCL Facebook group.

Here it is:

(Link):  How to Drink Orange Juice to the Glory of God by John Piper


  • I said that one of my reasons for believing this comes from 1 Corinthians 10:31. “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” I asked, “Is it sin to disobey this Biblical commandment?” Yes.
  • …Some of you then asked the practical question: Well, how do you “eat and drink” to the glory of God? Say, orange juice for breakfast?
  • ….Orange juice was “created to be received with thanksgiving by those whobelieve the truth.” Therefore, unbelievers cannot use orange juice for the purpose God intended—namely, as an occasion for heartfelt gratitude to God from a truth heart of faith.
  • But believers can, and this is how they glorify God. Their drinking orange juice is “sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.”

Yes, it’s an entire post explaining why and how Christians may drink Orange Juice to the glory of God.

This is a part of Christianity that I am glad to leave behind. In my faith crisis of the last few years, there have been some advantages to ceasing turning to the Bible as an authority in decision-making in life in every area.

Continue reading “On Not Filtering Every Choice Through the Bible”

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

✹ What follows is actually the heart of my “No Man’s Land” view. This is what prompted me to write it: ✹


As to the forums and blogs by ex Christians, liberal Christians, self identifying post-evangelicals, or those still Christian who expose spiritual abuse…

I notice a number of the regular visitors to these sites – the ones who left an abusive or legalistic church or denomination – simply now operate in the reverse in their thinking, which is, IMO, just as bad or wrong as the thinking they are leaving.

There are different types of ex-Christians one must take into consideration when discussing this topic, so I shall present some sketches of them first.

IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists)

For example, there are ex IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists).

IFB preachers and churches are ridiculously legalistic. They make up rules that are not in the Bible, or twist or exaggerate the rules already there to the point those rules then become unbiblical.

IFBs are the contemporary, American versions of the Bible’s Pharisees: nit picky, anal retentive, legalists who make up man-made rules but insist they are “biblical” and thus binding on all believers.

IFBs concoct man-made traditions they expect all IFB members to adhere to, just like the Roman Catholic hierarchy does towards Roman Catholic members.

For example, IFB churches are legalistic about secular entertainment and clothing and physical appearance.

IFB churches teach their congregations that women should not wear pants but only skirts. And the skirts should be only so many inches above or below the knee.

According to IFBs, men should not have hair that touches the back shirt collar – not a mullet to be found in IFB, which may be a good thing. Secular music and television is sinful and should always be avoided.

IFBs have other legalistic rules for just about every aspect of life.

IFBs are vehemently anti-Roman Catholicism as well as anti-Calvinism.

Continue reading “No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected”

No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (Part 1)

No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (PART 1)

This will be a series of posts where my thoughts wander in and out and all over, and it rambles, but there is a point or two behind it.

Since I’ve been in a faith crisis the last couple of years, somewhere between being an agnostic and a Christian, I have noticed I don’t fit in anywhere. I reside in No Man’s Land.

(Even before then, when I was a total, committed Christian, and politically, I was, and am, right wing, I still didn’t fit in at most blogs and forums, including political ones, and including ones for right wingers!

I tend to be one of those personalities who annoys or angers everyone, even those on “my side” of an issue, except a small number of people, who are either on my side of a topic or not, who “get me” or who appreciate where I’m coming from – again, this is true for even the ones who disagree with me on whatever topic we are discussing.)

I am in this really weird place now, where I am critical of some aspects of conservative Christianity, and see where conservative Christians get some doctrines and other things wrong, but, too, I am not fully on board with militant atheism (I find the New Atheists to be arrogant, vile, hateful and rude), and I don’t even care for lukewarm atheism.

Nor am I in the camp of anything and all things liberal Christianity, except where I think they get the occasional point correct (such as their rejection of gender complementarianism).

Since drifting away from the Christian faith more the last few years, I more often began frequenting forums or blogs for and by atheists, ones by liberal Christians, ones by ex Christians, or by Christians who were abused by a former church who remain Christian but who dropped out of Church, or who now are on a crusade to expose abuse by preachers or the absurdity and harm of current evangelical gimmicks.


A clarification: when I say I have been visiting atheist forums and blogs more often, I am very picky about which ones I regularly visit.

I do not like the frothing- at- the- mouth, extremely bitter, biased- against- Christians- type atheistic communities.

The bitter atheist groups sound like a bunch of irrational, hate-filled loons who reject Christianity for emotional reasons, but who lie to others and themselves and say, “Oh no, it’s purely intellectual.”

But their unrelenting, insane amount of hatred at any and all things God and Christian, is just a total turn-off to me, so I try to avoid such sites.

These angry, always-ranting atheists are really nothing more than Fundamentalist Atheists or Taliban Atheists. They are just as dogmatic about their atheism as Muslims are in their Wasabi Islam or Baptists are in their Neo Fundamentalism.

Really, those types of atheists are just as bad as the religious groups they claim they hate, but they don’t seem to spot that they are. It’s ironic – and it’s hard to stomach the day in, day out anger and hatred, so I try to avoid their sites.


Also, you have to be honest with yourself, which I do not find militant atheists to be, by and large: not every single Christian is a hypocrite, jerk, idiot, dullard, or complete jackhole.

I say this as someone who is very fed up with Christianity and Christian persons myself these days.

But your average militant atheist will never admit that some Christians are in fact okay and not being hypocrites.

I have known and met a few Christians who were sincerely trying to live the Christian faith out, such as my mother, who is now deceased, and her mother before her (my grandmother).

I’ve met a few honest, sincere Christians online who do help people and show compassion to the wounded.

So it’s not fair to completely dismiss the entirety of Christians and their faith or treat them all like jerks because some are liars, mean, or abusive.

Which is not easy for me personally, because at the same time, I do keep noticing that a lot of self-professing believers do NOT live out what the Bible says.

Many self professing Christians today, for example, do not protect victims, such as young church members who have been sexually molested by preachers.

Nor do many church goers today hold accountable preachers who bilk their church goers out of millions to buy big mansions and jets.

These idiots, these lemmings, actually defend their greedy pastors online, which I’ve written about here: (Link): Your Preacher Sucks – and People Have a Right To Say So And Explain Why.

Then you have a conservative or evangelical culture, which claims to care deeply that people preserve sex until marriage, but if you actually find yourself 40 years of age and still single – and therefore still a virgin, such as myself – these same churches and Christians do not offer you any support.

You either go ignored, or preachers and talking heads of such groups “run down” and insult celibacy as well as older, celibate adults. Churches treat single (and especially celibate) adults as though they are flawed, lepers, weirdos, or losers.

Churches wrongly counsel abused wives to return to their spouses – this is particularly true, again, of churches or Christian groups who buy into “biblical womanhood” (aka “gender complementariansm”) or “patriarchy.”

Churches and average Christians also remain ignorant or callous about matters pertaining to mental health issues, from P.T.S.D. to depression and anxiety attacks.

Some Christians wrongly and insensitively teach that “real Christians” can never get depression or other mental health maladies.

Or, some Christians believe and teach that prayer, faith, service to the poor, or Bible reading alone can cure one of mental illness.

Still other Christians (or the same type) will shame and guilt suffering Christians for using anti-depressant medications, or for seeing secular or Christian psychiatrists and therapists (see this link for more, “Over 50 Percent of Christians Believe Prayer, Bible Reading Alone Can Cure Mental Illness (article) – In Other Words Half of Christians are Ignorant Idiots Regarding Mental Illness”).

Yet other Christians are incompetent at, or unwilling, to provide more ordinary, “every day,” run- of- the- mill comfort to other Christians who are hurting, such as a Christian who is stressed out over a job loss, someone who is in mourning for a deceased loved one, etc.

Christians are dropping the ball in numerous ways.

And this failure, this huge failure, causes life long Christians like me to look long and hard at the faith and wonder if it’s true at all.

It causes even someone such as myself to ask if the faith is true, because

  • it doesn’t appear to be working,
  • it doesn’t make a difference in people’s life who profess it,
  • most who claim to follow Christ don’t actually do what he taught,
  • and some Christians refuse to hold Christians caught in bald faced sin accountable but excuse them for the sin,

~ and it makes you wonder “what is the point, then.”

I find this discrepancy between confessed belief and actual practice shocking, because I myself sincerely tried living out the faith since childhood.

Also, my Christian mother was a role model for me, and she genuinely, consistently lived out and by biblical teachings, including getting up off her ass and actually HELPING people (giving them money if they were in a bind, cleaning their homes for them when they were sick, listening to them cry and rant about their problems for hours without judging them or interrupting them, etc).

I am not seeing most other Christians do any of this. They say they believe in those things but then they do not do them.


Before I actually get into this topic (which I discuss more in Posts 2 and 3), here is some background leading up to it.

As far as the sites I have visited by liberal Christians, ex Christians, atheists, as well as sites by Christians for the spiritually abused:

By and large, these have been wonderful, supportive sites and groups to visit (the ones run by Christians for hurting Christians).

I have noticed, though, that there are problems even within these types of communities, and I don’t entirely fit in at them, either.

Continue reading “No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (Part 1)”

Sola Fide – Salvation By Faith Alone – Does Not Necessarily Lead to Sexual Sin or Immorality

Sola Fide – Salvation By Faith Alone – Does Not Necessarily Lead to Sexual Sin or Immorality

A commentator at this blog left several comments under other threads (such as (Link): here and (Link): herenote: I may be deleting or heavily editing his anti faith alone posts in the future) where he seemingly feels, unless I misunderstood him, that the belief of “salvation by faith alone” leads to, or excuses sexual sin.

The Apostle Paul touched on this topic in the book of Romans:

(Link): Romans 6: 1,2:

    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

This is the same Paul who taught that one is saved by grace through faith alone, not via works or by “right living” ((Link): Galatians 3):

    I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
    3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
    4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
    5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
    6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Here is a copy of my reply to the blog commentator:

    You seem to think believing in “salvation by faith alone” is what leads people (Christians specifically?) into sexual sin. I believe in salvation being by faith alone, and I am still a virgin over the age of 40, so it’s obviously not true that “faith alone-ism” necessarily leads to sexual sin.

    I find your view on this very insulting. It is usually held by Roman Catholics.

    I don’t know if you’re a Catholic or not (perhaps you are a Protestant who believes in “Conditional Security”), but I’ve had in-laws before who are Catholic who hold this same view as yours.

    One of them [a Roman Catholic] believes that ‘faith alone’ means that Baptists (of which I am one, or was one) live sleazy, sinful lives because we believe Jesus paid for all our sins [once for all].

    Meanwhile, this same Roman Catholic woman thinks that because Catholics reject that view, they are more “holy,” or live “godlier lives,” but her own sons (raised in Catholicism and anti faith alone views) were having sex outside of marriage.

    One of these sons of hers used to work in a sex toy store around X-rated material. So don’t tell me that rejecting “faith alone” means “being more godly, pure, and moral,” because it does not.

    Not only do I not believe in a works-based salvation (the book of James is discussing how one’s works can demonstrate to others that one is saved, it is not saying works with faith are necessary for salvation), I do not believe in Conditional Security (that one’s salvation can be lost), either.

    I am OSAS (Once saved, always saved), which is not the same thing as Calvinism’s Perseverence of the Saints (which is basically a works based system, where one has to do good works to prove one is of the elect, or, one has to maintain one’s own salvation via right living/ good works).

The guy leaving these comments also actually believes this (direct quote):

    So evil will be wiped out when all the faith alonists are annihilated in hell per Psalm 37:20…

Uh-huh. I don’t think so. He’s confusing Soteriology with sanctifiction. The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone, but that sanctification is a work of the indwelling Holy Spirit over a believer’s life time.

Anyway, the irony:
This blog visitor is claiming faith aloners engage in sexual sin like nobody’s business and here I am a faith aloner who is a virgin over the age of 40.

I have known “Conditional Security” advocates (they are anti faith aloners; they believe in salvation by works, good deeds, being pure) who live sexually immoral life styles.

I have not seen this guy do it, but there are some Christians who like to argue that pre-marital sex is a grounds for being sent to Hell -which is technically true, I guess, but any sin can send a person to Hell.

While I am disgusted at how utterly lax most Christians are about sexual sin these days, I do not believe the Bible teaches fornication is the “unpardonable” sin.

Ergo, I think it incorrect to use the verse (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) “and fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom” chestnut as some kind of proof a fornicator (who accepts Christ as Savior) cannot make it into Heaven. I have seen a few sexual purity advocates use that verse in that way.

There is this weird Bible verse (from 1 Tim),

    But women will be saved through childbearing– if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Some weird Christians try to twist that to mean a woman has to get preggers and pop out a kid to be saved. You have to be careful how you use Bible verses.

Obviously 1 Tim is not teaching women must get preggo, since that would violate other Bible verses that say….
-sex is for marriage only;
-marriage is a personal choice, not a commandment

There are married Christian couples who have medical issues who cannot conceive. I seriously doubt God is sending them to Hell for being unable to pop out a baby.

In the same way, I think the verse about “fornicators not inheriting” is sometimes misused as well.
Related posts this blog:

(Link): ‘Relevant’ Christian Magazine Ultimately Dismissive of Virginity – Also Maintain A Few Falsehoods

(Link): No, Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity

(Link): Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

(Link): Sometimes Shame Guilt and Hurt Feelings Over Sexual Sins Is a Good Thing – but – Emergents, Liberals Who Are Into Virgin and Celibate Shaming

(Link): Anti Virginity Editorial by Christian Blogger Tim Challies – Do Hurt / Shame Feelings or Sexual Abuse Mean Christians Should Cease Supporting Virginity or Teaching About Sexual Purity

(Link): Why So Much Fornication (sex outside of marriage) – Because Christians Have No Expectation of Sexual Purity

(Link): Christian Double Standards on Celibacy – Hetero Singles Must Abstain from Sex but Not Homosexual Singles

Preacher Greg Laurie on Celibacy: the Good and the Bad

Preacher Greg Laurie on Celibacy: the Good and the Bad

I watched part of Greg Laurie’s show last night. In the midst of giving a sermon on the End Times and the 144,000 evangelical Jews of that time period, Laurie paused to say something like,

“I shouldn’t have to say this, but unfortunately in this day and age, you have to: Sex outside of marriage is wrong. You should have sex within marriage, married to someone of the opposite gender.”

Laurie said now- a- days, a lot of people want to rationalize their fornication (sex outside or marriage – he also mentioned adultery), and basically said the Bible is clear on the issue. Laurie says it doesn’t matter if you love the person, or if the sex is between two consenting people and all the other usual excuses people use to justify their fornication (or adultery), it still remains a sin.

I applaud him for that. Good job.

However, where I depart from Laurie on this matter was when he a moment later quoted the part about “fornicators and adulterers [etc] not being permitted into the kingdom of God.” Bear in mind he seems to mostly be directing this message at a Christian audience (ie, people who have already accepted Christ as savior).

If you are a Christian and commit fornication, tell a lie, or commit some other sin, God can and will forgive you, if you ask Him to. Your name does not get removed from the Lamb’s Book of Life. I don’t think it’s biblical or appropriate to tell Christians that their salvation will be forfeit if they fornicate.

Perhaps Laurie is a proponent of the false teaching of “Conditional Security,” which is a works-based form of salvation (Christ grants you a possibility, and gets your foot in the door of salvation, but you have to be good to maintain your salvation – your salvation ultimately depends on you, your works, your goodness, and your effort).

So brownie points to Laurie for clearly stating that sex outside of marriage is a sin, but a big demerit for suggesting sexual sin causes saved people to go to Hell.

Bizarro Video By Bizarro Bearded Guy Giving Mostly Bad Advice to Christian Singles

Let’s hear it for insomnia! Here’s another 2:00 AM post.

Bizarro Video By Bizarro Bearded Guy Giving Mostly Bad Advice to Christian Singles

WTH is this?-

Video: (Link): Christian singles, beware of divorce and remarriage adultery

On the plus side, he did offer the standard advice that Christian singles need to look for more in a mate than lots of money or good looks, but that was one of the few sensible things he said in the video.

Granted, I’m not totally awake as I’m watching this video, but the guy in the video spends the first 2 minutes apparently saying if you’re a Christian but you marry a Non-Christian, you will go to Hell- from sheer fact of marrying an unbeliever.

This host guy in the video must be reading a different Bible from me, but then, I think this is the same kook that has the ‘evangelicaloutreach’ site that teaches the heresy known as “Conditional Security.”

He’s been on the web for years, sending out lots of e-mails and letters to preachers who teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) telling them they are going to Hell, and anyone who believe in OSAS is going to Hell. It’s his hobby horse.

He says that having sex outside of marriage can “lead you on the road to Hell” or it will put you in Hell. I don’t see that teaching in the Bible. There is some line in the Bible about “adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God” etc, but I take it that it does not apply to those who accepted Christ.

If anything, and as I have written before on this blog, God seems to ignore or even bless Christians who have sex outside of marriage, not condemn them for it, which makes me wonder why God bothers to say he’s against fornication in the Bible.

Video Host Guy (aka Weird Beard Dude) says not to marry Christians who don’t believe correct doctrine – this includes Christians who believe in Eternal Security. Hmm. I have always believed in Eternal Security (or, more accurately OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved). (Video Host Guy believes in the false teaching of “Conditional Security.”)

This guy is a wacko, and has too many rules about whom to marry.
Continue reading “Bizarro Video By Bizarro Bearded Guy Giving Mostly Bad Advice to Christian Singles”

John Hagee Believes in, Teaches Conditional Security (which is a false teaching)

Based on a November 29th, 2011 broadcast of a John Hagee show I watched, I take it that Hagee believes in Conditional Security, though he did not use the term “Conditional Security.”

I do not recall his exact words, but he said something to the effect that “once saved, always saved” is not true.

He quoted a few verses from Galatians and a part of Revelation to “prove” that a Christian can lose his or her salvation, or that a Christian has to continue to be good or to do good works to retain one’s salvation.

He made some remarks about how a Christian cannot expect to live any old way he wants to and expect to be saved.

CS (Conditional Security) is a false teaching, since it is a works-based salvation. Hagee, and those like him, believe that the atoning work and blood of Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation, but that it is up to one’s own effort and goodness to “remain saved.”

Here are links to pages by other people about these issues:

OSAS, The Whole Story

ETERNAL SECURITY (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

Eternal Security: How a Saved Person Can Never Be Lost Again

Security of the Believer: Once Saved Always Saved?

Why A Truly Born Again Christian CANNOT Be Lost

Soteriology: The Security of Our Salvation

The Eternal Security of the Believer:
Will God Fulfill His Promises? — Part 1

Can One Be GENUINELY ‘Born Again’ Yet Finally Not Inherit Eternal Life?