Christian Colleges Would Rather Women Students Die in Fires Than Leave Dorms in Immodest Clothing

(There is an update to this post farther below, under the “November 2014 update” heading)

Some Christian colleges, of the Baptist variety, it seems, would rather women students die in a fire than to leave their dorm rooms dressed immodestly.

I suppose it is better for a woman to die in a fire than for a man to catch a glimpse of the corner of a woman’s nightgown, God forbid.

(Link):  MODEST IS HOTTEST (LITERALLY) – from Stuff Fundies Like blog

(Link):  This School Has the Worst Fire Safety Policy You’ve Ever Seen – from The Friendly Atheist blog


The other day, I (Link): posted a story about a former Pensacola Christian College student who had awful recollections of the school’s fire drill policy:

Of course PCC isn’t known for really caring much about fire safety anyway. For years the rule has remained on the books that all female students must be in “proper” attire before they leave their rooms for a fire drill. If you happen to be sleeping in pajama pants, you must take the time to put on a skirt before you try to escape the flames. If you should perish then at least you’ll know you died for the cause of not tempting the fire fighters to lust after you.

//// end article excerpt ///

The atheist blogger says he contacted the Christian college and asked them to please clarify their stance. There ensued an exchange of 4 or 5 e-mails where yes, the college insists that Christian women put on pants, robes, or what have you before leaving in a fire drill.

Further excerpts, by the blogger:

After my last post, some commenters referred to a (Link): 2002 fire at a girls’ school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Because they were not wearing proper religious garb, the girls were instructed to head back into a burning building. 15 girls died in the fire; who knows how many lives could have been saved if safety, not modesty, was the first priority.

–[end article excerpt]—

Yes, as I’ve noted before, there are times when fundamentalist, evangelical, and other types of Christianity, sound remarkably close to Islam or Mormonism.

I cannot believe that Christians teach this sort of garbage, which can be unsafe for women.

Christians who promote such views also fail to recognize the irony, in that while their goal appears to keep men from “stumbling” by seeing a woman dressed in a night gown, they are, at the same time, sexually objectifying women.

In other words, Christians who push absurdist forms of modesty teachings and practices are contributing to the very problem they are trying to halt, and causing other problems on top of that.

November 2014 update….

About a week ago, someone tweeted me in response, after I tweeted a link to this blog post, that she doesn’t feel that my blog’s heading accurately depicts the situation.

She seems to feel that this behavior – requiring college women to bundle up before leaving a dorm room during a fire drill – is not truly representative of  American Christianity in general.

She noted that these colleges mentioned in the stories above are very, very conservative institutions, so they should not be taken of being representative of all Christians.

The lady who informed me of this is someone who is, if I understand correctly, a founder of a well known, Christian gender egalitarian blog, one which I enjoy.

I see what she’s saying, but – this is still a problem within Christianity, regardless.

There are different degrees of sexism within Christianity, by the branches or denominations who cling to, or who defend, “gender complementarianism,” “purity” and “modesty” teachings as being biblical.

There are times when American conservative evangelicalism and other forms of Christianity sound a lot like Mormonism and Islam (I’ve posted stories before noting the similarities of beliefs and practices among these groups, especially as pertaining to sex, dating, marriage and views, teachings, and treatment or roles of women).

While there may be Christian universities who do not demand that female students dress head to toe in “burka garb” before departing a dorm during a fire drill, this doesn’t change the fact that this type of objectification of women can still be found in lesser forms in those universities, or in Christian literature, sermons, churches, blogs, and books.

The same views about women that under-gird the extreme conservative colleges on these strict clothing requirements during fire drills is the same exact rationale, convictions, and worldviews which underlie the more mild expressions of sexism against women by gender complementarians (such as not permitting women to preach in churches, teaching one-way submission of wives to husbands, etc) that this woman’s own blog who contacted me covers on a regular basis.


h/t to Stuff Fundies Like blog, which in turn linked to another story at the Friendly Atheist blog


Related posts:

(Link):  Sexualizing Modesty – Christians Defeating the Purpose

(Link): When We Sacrifice a Girl’s Innocence from Re: Modesty and Purity Teachings

(Link): Beauty Redefined Site Discusses Modesty: Modest Is Hottest?

(Link): Modesty: A Female-Only Virtue? – Christian Double Standards – Hypocrisy

(Link): Atlantic: “The case for abandoning the myth that ‘women aren’t visual.’”

(Link): When Suits Become a Stumbling Block: A Plea to My Brothers in Christ* by LP

(Link):  Extremist Muslims Like Family Values Too – Muslims are joining ISIS / ISIL (extremist Islamic group) because they believe it supports “Family Values” – When Christianity and Islam sound alike

(Link):  Southern Baptists Pushing Early Marriage, Baby Making – Iranians Pushing Mandatory Motherhood – When Christians Sound Like Muslims

(Link): Funny Satirical Piece: Woman Mocks Demands for Female Modesty By Shaming Males (and their judgy Mothers) For Being Immodest

(Link): Women Are Visual And Like Hot Looking Men (Part 1) Joseph in Genesis Was A Stud Muffin

(Link): Superman, Man Candy -and- Christian Women Are Visual And Enjoy Looking At Built, Hot, Sexy Men

(Link): The Annoying, Weird, Sexist Preoccupation by Christian Males with Female Looks and Sexuality

(Link): Women Reading and Enjoying Erotica (Fifty Shades of Grey) Yes, Females Are Interested In Sex – Contrary to Gender Stereotypes

(Link): Boy Bands, Rock Singers, and Other High School Crushes – Yes, Women Are Visually Stimulated and Visually Oriented

(Link): Ryan Gosling and Shirtless, Buff Cowboy Photos on Social Media – Yes, Women Are Visually Stimulated and Visually Oriented (Part 2)

(Link): Male Modesty and Male Shaming

(Link): No Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity – Christians Attack and Criticize Virginity Sexual Purity Celibacy / Virginity Sexual Purity Not An Idol

(Link): Modesty Teachings – When Mormons Sound like Christians and Gender Complementarians

(Link): “He’s Got Muscles” – Pat Robertson Weirdness (Discussing Tebow’s Sexiness)

(Link): When Women Wanted Sex Much More Than Men – and how the stereotype flipped

(Link): Christian Gender and Sex Stereotypes Act as Obstacles to Christian Singles Who Want to Get Married (Not All Men Are Obsessed with Sex)

Taking the Opposite Position from Neo Calvinists Just Because It’s the Opposite of Neo Calvinists

Taking the Opposite Position from Neo Calvinists Just Because It’s the Opposite of Neo Calvinists

I touched on this in an earlier post or two, such as this one: (Link): No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected.

But this time, I wanted to discuss Neo Calvinism and spiritual abuse blogs and advocates in particular.

I do not support Neo Calvinism, or even old school Calvinism. I think Calvinism is a crock of crap.

Many of the NC’s (Neo Calvinists, aka YRRs), are arrogant, narrow minded jerks.

My problem with seeing NC guys, their churches, or their positions discussed and picked apart by some bloggers is that the anti NCs go into reactionary mode.

Their positions often time seem not so much well thought out in and of themselves, but that they will take a position opposite of that held by most NCs just because it’s the opposite of that held by NCs.

I do know a little bit about NCs and their theological beliefs, but not as much as their frequent critics.

According to their frequent critics, NCs believe in a literal six day creation, not an old age of the earth.

(As for me, I am NOT an NC, and I believe in a literal six day creation.)

My issue when I visit blogs or Twitter accounts by people who are vehemently anti NC is that they will, it appears to me, automatically take the opposite position on anything John Piper, The Gospel Coaltion, and other NC guys say just to be contrary.

Continue reading “Taking the Opposite Position from Neo Calvinists Just Because It’s the Opposite of Neo Calvinists”

Parents who kill their children by intentionally leaving them locked in hot cars all day – Dad was sexting while his toddler son was dying in car

Parents who kill their children by intentionally leaving them locked in hot cars all day – Dad was sexting while his toddler son was dying in car
Notice from Christian Pundit blogger: There is coming a time when I will either not be blogging as frequently or not at all. Please read more about that here in this post (Link): Blog Break – May 2014 – and List of This Blog’s Best or Most Relevant Posts
There was a story in the news this past week of an idiot father, Harris, who killed his toddler son by intentionally leaving him locked in a hot car for several hours.

The police examined Harris’ home computer and say both he and his wife researched information online on ‘how long does it take for child to die in a hot car’ and so forth.

But wait, it gets even better. According to headlines I saw today, not only did Dirt Bag Dad leave his toddler son to die in a hot car, but he “sexted” women, including TEENAGERS, while his kid was dying, and in the weeks before. (See links to that below for more.)

I’m in my early 40s but am like a cranky old woman when it comes to babies and children. I have never married and never had children. I do not like children or babies or being around them. I try to avoid them if I can.

But you know what: I would never intentionally harm or murder a baby or a child. If I saw a kid in trouble, I would come to his or her assistance, or at least call the police.

I bring this all up because it is a common, nasty stereotype in Southern Baptist, Reformed, Fundamentalist, and evangelical Christianity that single adults and the childless (or childfree) are selfish, warped, weird, immature losers, but that parents and the married are instantly more godly, ethical, and more mature. I think news stories like the ones I’ve linked to below debunk these Christian stereotypes.

Understand that I am NOT opposed to people remaining virgins until marriage, but:
I also think this news story blows holes in the evangelical sex propaganda that if people just maintain virginity until marriage, that the sex will be mindblowing, great, frequent, and constant.

How “mindblowing” was this married father’s sex life if he was sexting women and teen girls with nude photos?

On a last note: some Christians will argue that you must become perfect and godly before God will reward you with a spouse. Is a man, like the one in this news story below, who murders his own two year old son and who sends pornographic photos to young teen women, perfect and godly?

If you’re a Christian who believes in the nonsense that an unmarried person must clean herself up, become godly and perfect, before God will reward her with a spouse, please explain what it was this dirt bag father did to merit a spouse from God? He is far from perfect, godly, and loving.

(Link): Detective: Dad who left child in hot SUV showed no emotion after boy died

    updated Thursday, July 3, 2014

    Harris was exchanging nude photos with several women, including teenagers, even on the day his son died when he was at work, Stoddard said. In the weeks before the boy’s death, the man also had looked at a website that advocated against having children and had done an Internet search for “how to survive in prison,” the detective said.

(Link): Detective: Dad had 2 life insurance policies for son

    MARIETTA, Ga. — A Georgia man charged with murder in his 22-month-old son’s death was sexting with several women on the day of his son’s death and that he had two life insurance policies on his son, a detective testified Thursday.

    During a probable cause hearing in Cobb County Magistrate Court for Justin Ross Harris, Cobb County Police Detective Phil Stoddard said Harris, who is charged with murder and child cruelty in the June 18 death of his young son, Cooper, intentionally left his son in the car.

    Stoddard testified the two life insurance policies on Cooper were for $2,000 and $25,000.

    The detective also testified that Harris had accessed websites advocating “child free” and searched “how to survive prison” before Cooper died.

(Link): Georgia Dad in Hot-Car Death Case ‘Sexted’ Other Women: Cops

    The suburban Atlanta father accused of murdering his toddler by leaving him in a hot SUV for several hours was in an unhappy marriage and wanted a “child-free life,” a detective testified Thursday.

    Justin Ross Harris, 33, of Marietta, had even been sexting with other women in the two weeks before son Cooper was found dead in the back seat of the family SUV on June 18, said Cobb County Det. Phil Stoddard.

    Prosecutors during Harris’ probable cause hearing were building a case for why Harris allegedly left his son in a sweltering car on purpose while he was at work. “Evidence shows he has this whole second life … with alternate personas,” Stoddard said. It was also revealed that Harris and his wife, Leanna, had two life insurance policies on their 22-month-old son.

(Link): Watch live: Prosecutor says Justin Ross Harris sexted while toddler in car; witness describes him as sobbing father

(Link): Dad Charged With Toddler’s Hot Car Death Was Sexting While Boy Died: Cop

Christian Confusion on Sexual Ethics – Sexual Purity is For All Ages and All Marital Statuses, and Sexual Sin is Not Just Limited to Adultery – Rape is Not An Extra Marital Affair

Christian Confusion on Sexual Ethics – Sexual Purity is For All Ages and All Marital Statuses, and Sexual Sin is Not Just Limited to Adultery – Rape is Not An Affair

Conservative Christians keeps presenting some very skewed views about sex and sexual sin.

While a lot of Christians have watered down the biblical teaching of “virginity- until- marriage,” the ones who still do bother to give it lip service seem to think that sexual sin only befalls unmarried people who are younger than age 25.

There is an ignorant assumption by most Christians that married couples will never commit sexual sin, because they are supposedly getting their sexual desires satiated on a regular basis with their spouse (which is false, see these links: Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, for just a few examples).

In some recent news stories about rape, some Christians have been characterizing the reported rapes as being “extra marital affairs,” and one young lady, who was raped several times at age 19 by a co-worker, told her Christian college (B.J.U., Bob Jones University) about the rapes, and was told by college staff that she needed to repent of her sin of being a rape victim.

I wrote about the first story here:
(Link): Married Youth Pastor Jailed for Sexually Assaulting Teen Girl Writes Editorial About Said Abuse for Christianity Today, Uproar Ensues On Christian Blogs

One rape victim also made the comment in an interview that she thought in terms of sexual sin as being ‘adultery’ and did not have a concept of rape.

As one commentator over at SCCL Facebook group pointed out in regards to this news story about BJU’s mishandling of response to sexual assault victims (source),

    The lack of a working, moral vocabulary for sexual violation is a huge blindspot for faith communities. The Christianity Today article last week was also couched in “adultery” terms. The discussion of sexual morality has to grow outside the marriage/adultery frame. Also, that moral vocabulary has to do a better job in connecting to broader social justice. Less hush-up. More call-out.

It is true that often, in their stereotypes about sex and sexual sin, the Christians who do bother to preach against sexual sin any more (many do not preach against it), still often neglect to teach that celibacy applies to married couples (e.g., when one partner cannot perform, or the couple are apart for whatever reason), as well as to unmarried people, and that sexual purity applies to people of all ages, not just to teen-aged kids.

(Link): Rape victims say Bob Jones University told them to repent


    June 18, 2014 1:00PM ET
    by Claire Gordo

    Raised in a conservative Mennonite home in rural Ohio, Katie Landry was a sheltered kid. She hadn’t even held hands with a boy when, at age 19, she says her supervisor at her summer job raped her. Two years later, and desperate for help, she reported the abuse to the dean of students at her college.

    He goes, ‘Well, there’s always a sin under other sin. There’s a root sin,’” Landry remembers. “And he said, ‘We have to find the sin in your life that caused your rape.’ And I just ran.”

    …But most damaging was how, through the language of Scripture, victims say they were told that their sins had brought on their rapes, that their trauma meant they were fighting God and that healing came from forgiving their rapists.

    [Katie Landry discusses having been raped by a co-worker]

    Landry didn’t know the word rape; she only knew adultery, and liked the man’s wife, she said. Afraid of her attacker and deeply ashamed, she said she failed most her classes first semester, and kept her assaults a secret until her junior year.

I do think there is something very amiss with any so-called Christian group, church, or denomination, that speaks of sexual sin only in terms of adultery, so that when a young, unmarried woman is sexually assaulted, she does not even have the terminology to describe it, or is not even familiar with the word “rape.”

I also wonder if the church Ms. Landry attended did not read aloud from the Scriptures, where episodes such as the rape of Tamar are discussed (see (Link): 2 Samuel 13:32).

Christians have idolized marriage to the point that it’s given them faulty views about sexual sin, where some of them think only un-married adults are capable of sexual sin, or others think that the only sexual sin married people are capable of is “adultery” (never mind all the married men who view porn, use prostitutes or who sexually fondle children, aside from men raping 19 year old women).

I see a lot of outrage over this B.J.U. story from left wingers, ex Christians, etc, and rightly so – but – these are the same groups who criticize sexual purity teachings, which I find a tad hypocritical.

If Christians supported and taught sexual purity across the board rather than only emphasizing virginity for females ages teen to 25, but also taught and upheld the biblical views that males are to remain virgins until marriage as well, and that any sexual activity outside of marriage (rape, consensual affairs, porn use, etc), was wrong, maybe some of these problems could be lowered.
Related posts:

(Link): Marriage Does Not Make People More Loving Mature Godly Ethical Caring or Responsible (One Stop Thread)

(Link): Perverted Christian Married Couple Wants to “Wife Swap” (For Sex) With Other Christian Couple – Why Christians Need to Uphold Chastity / Celibacy For All People Even Married Couples Not Just Teens

(Link): No Christians and Churches Do Not Idolize Virginity and Sexual Purity – Christians Attack and Criticize Virginity Sexual Purity Celibacy / Virginity Sexual Purity Not An Idol

(Link): Males and Females Raped at Christian College, College Doesn’t Care – Equally Yoked is a Joke

(Link): How Feminists Are Making Women Easier Rape Targets

(Link): The ol’ Christian myth that married couples are impervious to sexual sin but singles have lots of sexual sin

(Link): New ‘Christian Swingers’ Dating Site Offers Faithful Couples Chance to ‘Hookup’

(Link): Marriage does not guarantee sexual purity: Married guy discovers his wife is having sex chats with online buddy

(Link): Why Christians Need to Uphold Lifelong Celibacy as an Option for All Instead of Merely Pressuring All to Marry – vis a vis Sexless Marriages, Counselors Who Tell Marrieds that Having Affairs Can Help their Marriages

(Link): Jason the Christian’s Sexless Marriage – Christians promise hot regular steamy married sex but it isn’t true

(Link): AARP post: How to Handle a Sexless Married Life – But Christians Promise You Great Hot Regular Married Sex

(Link): More Married Couples Admit to Sexless Marriages (various articles) / Christians promise you great frequent sex if you wait until marriage, but the propaganda is not true

Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy – editorial by Gresh, discusses slut shaming, rape culture, modesty – has points I agree and disagree with

Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy – editorial

This editorial had some points I agreed with but some I did not. Under this long excerpt are rebuttals by a reader of this editorial on Christian Post.

(Link): Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy, by Dannah Gresh


    April 16, 2014|4:39 pm
    Recently, modesty proponents have been accused of promoting “rape culture” by both faith-based and mainstream bloggers and columnists. The thinking, led by secular third wave feminists, asserts that discussing modesty “sexualizes women” which in turn contributes to rape crimes.

    During the same time period over 100 million readers made E.L. James’ Fifty Shades of Grey the fastest-selling paperback of all time. Barna research reports no statistical difference in the percentage of Christian women versus the general public reading the series, which glamorizes sexual violence against women. The Christian media has been largely silent on this issue.

    As a leader in both the modesty movement and the fight against women being victimized by pornography and erotica, I find the Christian response to reveal a tragic double standard.

    Does teaching modesty promote “rape culture”? A better question to begin with is this: does “rape culture” even exist?

    Last month, a TIME Magazine article declared that it was “Time To End Rape Culture Hysteria.” Writer Caroline Kitchens championed the report of the nation’s leading anti-sexual violence organization, RAINN, which rebuked the overemphasis on the concept of “rape culture” as a means of preventing rape, citing that 90% of rapes on college campuses are committed by 3% of the male population. RAINN argues that rape is the product of individuals who have decided to disregard the overwhelming cultural messages that rape is wrong.

    The fact is rape crime is on the decline.

    …. The RAINN report argues that the trend towards focusing on cultural factors “has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

    … The “rape culture” idea is a feminist dogma implying that ultimately all women are victimized by men. This monolithic generalization paralyzes us from focusing together on how we can continue the good work of reducing the number of victims.

    The reduction would begin by cancelling out the fallacious “victim” label placed on those who’ve been encouraged to dress modestly. Case in point is the current verbal riot occurring over an Evanston, Illinois public school dress code, which showcases well how harmful the “rape culture” vultures can be. Under allegations that the school recently banned leggings and yoga pants, feminists accused the district of “slut shaming” girls.

    …And there’s nothing wrong with teaching Christian girls and women that God wants nothing they wear to distract from the good works they do and the great minds God’s given to them. In fact, from a biblical perspective it’s very right.

    …This same sad dichotomy is seen in the Christian dialogue with bloggers fueling the self-proclaimed “evangelistic” rhetoric of third wave feminists under the guise of Christian socialism, while those on the front lines as activists-teaching girls and women to respect themselves by training them in the biblical concepts of modesty and purity, and binding the wounds of those victimized by porn and erotica-take the blows of their hollow arguments.

    … The Christian media should lead the charge in righting this grave double standard. That is, unless, we are going to continue to take our cues from the feminist culture, which applies “tolerance” to any sexual preference unless it lines up with God’s plan for sexuality.

Responses by readers of the editorial:

    by RoyalCourt

    This is one of those topics where both sides – secular feminists and Christians – get some points right, but get some points wrong. I’ve nothing against parents teaching daughters to dress modestly – however, there are some incorrect assumptions being made by Christians who teach modesty.

    First of all, women are visually stimulated too, not just men, as Christians erroneously teach. There is a double standard, though, where Christians only tell women to dress modestly, but never advise young, hot sexy men with nice bods to keep their t-shirts on.

    Secondly, modesty should not be taught to females in such a way to suggest that they are responsible for the male gaze or male sexual sins.

    In the end scheme of things, it matters not if a buxom, nuible young thing parades naked in front of a Christian man: he is still responsible for his thought life and his actions, regardless of how a woman is dressed.

    Lastly, what one man considers modest another would still consider immodest, sexy, or a “turn on.” There is no universally-agreed upon definition or dress code for what constitutes “modest,” unless Christians want to start forcing all women to wear Islamic burkas.

    Continue reading “Fifty Shades of Feminine Hypocrisy – editorial by Gresh, discusses slut shaming, rape culture, modesty – has points I agree and disagree with”

Neither Fully Widow Nor Fully Wife – Married People Will Be Single Again

Neither Fully Widow Nor Fully Wife – Married People Will Be Single Again

I’ve blogged on this before: married people left single again in a sense because their spouse developed dementia.

The church – run by married couples – makes an idol out of marriage, treats singles like second class citizens, or doesn’t take notice of singles, and it never seems to enter their minds that one day their spouse will be dead, either of old age, or possibly prematurely in their 30s, 40s, 50s from an auto accident, cancer or some other incident or health problem.

Your spouse could divorce you when you’re both 38 years old – maybe he says he’s fallen out of love, or he wants to run off with another woman.

If a woman’s husband is physically or emotionally abusive, she may have to divorce him.

Being married now is not a guarantee you’ll be married tomorrow or five years from now.

This is one reason it is to the benefit of married people to keep and maintain friendships with other people outside their immediate family (like hey, single adults).

Here’s another article about married people being, in effect, in a manner of speaking, left single again because their spouse has dementia.

(Link): Neither Fully Widow Nor Fully Wife

    Alzheimer’s puts caregivers in painful in-betweens.
    Jamie A. Hughes, guest writer

… But for my grandmother, the outcome isn’t so promising, as her husband will continue to lose abilities with each passing year. She is one of 15 million people in the United States caring for someone with Alzheimer’s or another form of dementia.

According to a recent report by the Alzheimer’s Association, more than 5.2 million Americans are affected by this disease, and the number is expected to climb to 13.8 million by 2050.

… Women bear the brunt of this illness in more ways than one. Not only are we more likely to be diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease, but we also shoulder the burden of being primary caregivers. (Between 60 to 70 percent of people nursing a loved one with this condition are female.)

…2 Corinthians 9:11 says that Christians are “enriched in every way to be generous in every way” (NKJV), but I lost sight of that in the confusion of shifting family dynamics.

My grandfather struggled to pray at family gatherings, so my uncle assumed the task. Another person absorbed his duties around the house. Others became the handyman, bookkeeper, and financial planner.

Though I did whatever I could to help my grandfather, I rarely spared a thought for my grandmother. I didn’t fully understand how this disease has eaten away at her life and sense of self.

I came to see that she, too, was mourning—both for herself and the man she’s loved for 58 years, the one she’s losing to a pitiless disease that scours memories from the gray grooves of his brain.

Continue reading “Neither Fully Widow Nor Fully Wife – Married People Will Be Single Again”

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

✹ What follows is actually the heart of my “No Man’s Land” view. This is what prompted me to write it: ✹


As to the forums and blogs by ex Christians, liberal Christians, self identifying post-evangelicals, or those still Christian who expose spiritual abuse…

I notice a number of the regular visitors to these sites – the ones who left an abusive or legalistic church or denomination – simply now operate in the reverse in their thinking, which is, IMO, just as bad or wrong as the thinking they are leaving.

There are different types of ex-Christians one must take into consideration when discussing this topic, so I shall present some sketches of them first.

IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists)

For example, there are ex IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists).

IFB preachers and churches are ridiculously legalistic. They make up rules that are not in the Bible, or twist or exaggerate the rules already there to the point those rules then become unbiblical.

IFBs are the contemporary, American versions of the Bible’s Pharisees: nit picky, anal retentive, legalists who make up man-made rules but insist they are “biblical” and thus binding on all believers.

IFBs concoct man-made traditions they expect all IFB members to adhere to, just like the Roman Catholic hierarchy does towards Roman Catholic members.

For example, IFB churches are legalistic about secular entertainment and clothing and physical appearance.

IFB churches teach their congregations that women should not wear pants but only skirts. And the skirts should be only so many inches above or below the knee.

According to IFBs, men should not have hair that touches the back shirt collar – not a mullet to be found in IFB, which may be a good thing. Secular music and television is sinful and should always be avoided.

IFBs have other legalistic rules for just about every aspect of life.

IFBs are vehemently anti-Roman Catholicism as well as anti-Calvinism.

Continue reading “No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected”

No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (Part 1)

No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (PART 1)

This will be a series of posts where my thoughts wander in and out and all over, and it rambles, but there is a point or two behind it.

Since I’ve been in a faith crisis the last couple of years, somewhere between being an agnostic and a Christian, I have noticed I don’t fit in anywhere. I reside in No Man’s Land.

(Even before then, when I was a total, committed Christian, and politically, I was, and am, right wing, I still didn’t fit in at most blogs and forums, including political ones, and including ones for right wingers!

I tend to be one of those personalities who annoys or angers everyone, even those on “my side” of an issue, except a small number of people, who are either on my side of a topic or not, who “get me” or who appreciate where I’m coming from – again, this is true for even the ones who disagree with me on whatever topic we are discussing.)

I am in this really weird place now, where I am critical of some aspects of conservative Christianity, and see where conservative Christians get some doctrines and other things wrong, but, too, I am not fully on board with militant atheism (I find the New Atheists to be arrogant, vile, hateful and rude), and I don’t even care for lukewarm atheism.

Nor am I in the camp of anything and all things liberal Christianity, except where I think they get the occasional point correct (such as their rejection of gender complementarianism).

Since drifting away from the Christian faith more the last few years, I more often began frequenting forums or blogs for and by atheists, ones by liberal Christians, ones by ex Christians, or by Christians who were abused by a former church who remain Christian but who dropped out of Church, or who now are on a crusade to expose abuse by preachers or the absurdity and harm of current evangelical gimmicks.


A clarification: when I say I have been visiting atheist forums and blogs more often, I am very picky about which ones I regularly visit.

I do not like the frothing- at- the- mouth, extremely bitter, biased- against- Christians- type atheistic communities.

The bitter atheist groups sound like a bunch of irrational, hate-filled loons who reject Christianity for emotional reasons, but who lie to others and themselves and say, “Oh no, it’s purely intellectual.”

But their unrelenting, insane amount of hatred at any and all things God and Christian, is just a total turn-off to me, so I try to avoid such sites.

These angry, always-ranting atheists are really nothing more than Fundamentalist Atheists or Taliban Atheists. They are just as dogmatic about their atheism as Muslims are in their Wasabi Islam or Baptists are in their Neo Fundamentalism.

Really, those types of atheists are just as bad as the religious groups they claim they hate, but they don’t seem to spot that they are. It’s ironic – and it’s hard to stomach the day in, day out anger and hatred, so I try to avoid their sites.


Also, you have to be honest with yourself, which I do not find militant atheists to be, by and large: not every single Christian is a hypocrite, jerk, idiot, dullard, or complete jackhole.

I say this as someone who is very fed up with Christianity and Christian persons myself these days.

But your average militant atheist will never admit that some Christians are in fact okay and not being hypocrites.

I have known and met a few Christians who were sincerely trying to live the Christian faith out, such as my mother, who is now deceased, and her mother before her (my grandmother).

I’ve met a few honest, sincere Christians online who do help people and show compassion to the wounded.

So it’s not fair to completely dismiss the entirety of Christians and their faith or treat them all like jerks because some are liars, mean, or abusive.

Which is not easy for me personally, because at the same time, I do keep noticing that a lot of self-professing believers do NOT live out what the Bible says.

Many self professing Christians today, for example, do not protect victims, such as young church members who have been sexually molested by preachers.

Nor do many church goers today hold accountable preachers who bilk their church goers out of millions to buy big mansions and jets.

These idiots, these lemmings, actually defend their greedy pastors online, which I’ve written about here: (Link): Your Preacher Sucks – and People Have a Right To Say So And Explain Why.

Then you have a conservative or evangelical culture, which claims to care deeply that people preserve sex until marriage, but if you actually find yourself 40 years of age and still single – and therefore still a virgin, such as myself – these same churches and Christians do not offer you any support.

You either go ignored, or preachers and talking heads of such groups “run down” and insult celibacy as well as older, celibate adults. Churches treat single (and especially celibate) adults as though they are flawed, lepers, weirdos, or losers.

Churches wrongly counsel abused wives to return to their spouses – this is particularly true, again, of churches or Christian groups who buy into “biblical womanhood” (aka “gender complementariansm”) or “patriarchy.”

Churches and average Christians also remain ignorant or callous about matters pertaining to mental health issues, from P.T.S.D. to depression and anxiety attacks.

Some Christians wrongly and insensitively teach that “real Christians” can never get depression or other mental health maladies.

Or, some Christians believe and teach that prayer, faith, service to the poor, or Bible reading alone can cure one of mental illness.

Still other Christians (or the same type) will shame and guilt suffering Christians for using anti-depressant medications, or for seeing secular or Christian psychiatrists and therapists (see this link for more, “Over 50 Percent of Christians Believe Prayer, Bible Reading Alone Can Cure Mental Illness (article) – In Other Words Half of Christians are Ignorant Idiots Regarding Mental Illness”).

Yet other Christians are incompetent at, or unwilling, to provide more ordinary, “every day,” run- of- the- mill comfort to other Christians who are hurting, such as a Christian who is stressed out over a job loss, someone who is in mourning for a deceased loved one, etc.

Christians are dropping the ball in numerous ways.

And this failure, this huge failure, causes life long Christians like me to look long and hard at the faith and wonder if it’s true at all.

It causes even someone such as myself to ask if the faith is true, because

  • it doesn’t appear to be working,
  • it doesn’t make a difference in people’s life who profess it,
  • most who claim to follow Christ don’t actually do what he taught,
  • and some Christians refuse to hold Christians caught in bald faced sin accountable but excuse them for the sin,

~ and it makes you wonder “what is the point, then.”

I find this discrepancy between confessed belief and actual practice shocking, because I myself sincerely tried living out the faith since childhood.

Also, my Christian mother was a role model for me, and she genuinely, consistently lived out and by biblical teachings, including getting up off her ass and actually HELPING people (giving them money if they were in a bind, cleaning their homes for them when they were sick, listening to them cry and rant about their problems for hours without judging them or interrupting them, etc).

I am not seeing most other Christians do any of this. They say they believe in those things but then they do not do them.


Before I actually get into this topic (which I discuss more in Posts 2 and 3), here is some background leading up to it.

As far as the sites I have visited by liberal Christians, ex Christians, atheists, as well as sites by Christians for the spiritually abused:

By and large, these have been wonderful, supportive sites and groups to visit (the ones run by Christians for hurting Christians).

I have noticed, though, that there are problems even within these types of communities, and I don’t entirely fit in at them, either.

Continue reading “No Man’s Land – Between Agnosticism and Christianity / Also: It’s Emotional Not Intellectual (Part 1)”

Married Baptist Church Preacher Repeatedly Demands Sex from Woman at Hotel and Blames The Devil For His Actions & Is Now Facing Sexual Battery Charges

Married Baptist Church Preacher Repeatedly Demands Sex from Woman at Hotel and Blames The Devil For His Actions

Re: “Harriett Memorial Freewill Baptist Church’s Pastor Robert Harris”

I believe this is the pervert’s church (his name is even on the home page):

Listed under “sermons” on that site, as I write this, are sermons with these titles:

  • Salvation is an Experience, an Expression, an Exercise, an Enjoyment, and Everlasting.
  • Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!

When I think this preacher really ought to familiarize himself with material such as this:

I’m still trying to determine if this perverted yea-hoo is married or a father; if he is, this is another example of (Link): this and (Link): this.

Okay, yes, this site says he is in fact married:
(Link): Minister: ‘I gave into the lust of the flesh’ (Shelby Star paper)

    By Kevin Ellis and Lauren Baheri
    Published: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 at 16:38 PM.

    A married Baptist minister said he needs prayers and forgiveness after he was accused of grabbing a woman, throwing money at her and asking for sex in a motel Tuesday.

    “I have talked to God all night last night and today,” Forest City pastor Robert Harris said Wednesday.

This is yet another example of why single Christian women who desire marriage need to judge a man by his character, not by a profession of faith.

This is another example of why Christian single women who want to marry need to disregard the “be not yoked to an unbeliever” Bible verse, as it’s totally pointless, since so many male believers are sexual deviants (or abusive).

And I guess his married Christian sex life with his wife wasn’t so hot if he was looking to get sex from another woman (Christians like to brain wash singles into thinking sex is worth the wait because married sex is supposedly higher quality and/or more frequent than unmarried sex).

(Link): Pastor in Gaston Co. charged with sexual battery

(Link): Pastor charged with sexual battery: ‘I allowed the devil to motivate my mind’

    March 2014
    By Ken Lemon
    GASTON COUNTY, N.C. — A Gastonia pastor said the devil led him to a Super 8, where police said he asked a woman for sex.

    Officers told Channel 9 that the pastor said he thought the woman was a prostitute and threw a $20 bill at her.

    Robert Harris said Wednesday he will tell his congregation that he asked for sex from a woman in a Gastonia motel.

    He said he will ask for their forgiveness and it will be up to them to decide if they keep him as their leader

    Harris has been the pastor at Harriett Memorial Freewill Baptist Church in Forest City for the past 13 years.

    He said he had counseled a couple at the Super 8 in Gastonia 10 years ago.

    He went back last night knocking on a woman’s door.
    The woman said she did not want to be identified.

    “He asked me if I wanted to have some fun,” she said.

    She told him no. He left and she called 911.

    Her baby was on the bed and she was on the phone with police when Harris came back.

    “(He) tried to push himself in on me. Threw me a $20 bill and said, ‘There is more where that came from. Just let me in for a few minutes,’ knowing my 12-month-old daughter was right there with me,” the woman said.

    The officer on the phone said he heard Harris making vulgar requests to the woman.

    The arresting officer said Harris claimed he had come to that hotel in the past for sex.

    Channel 9 spoke to Harris by phone.

    “I should never have been in that place, period,” Harris said.

    He said he had never seen that woman before and wanted to apologize to her.

    “I beg for her forgiveness that I was wrong. I asked God to forgive me,” he said.

    He said he hadn’t told his family or parishioners.

    He said he wanted to go to God in prayer first.

    “I have ruined my life. I have ruined my ministry. I have ruined my family,” Harris said.

    His accuser was stunned when we told her that Harris was a minister.

    She thinks any punishment he receives should be far greater than the average person.

    “He is abusing the people, not just me,” she said.

    Harris said he had not forgiven himself for what he has done.

(Link): Pastor charged with sexual battery claims devil ‘motivated his mind’ in motel attack

Additional Rebuttals to CBMW Gender Complementarian Heresy and Travesty That Declares All Females Must Submit To All Males In Heaven

Additional Rebuttals to CBMW Christian Gender Complementarian Heresy and Travesty That Declares All Females Must Submit To All Males In Heaven (Part 3)

I should note that not only are Christian egalitarians recoiling in horror and disgust over CBMW’s “women shall have to submit to all men in the afterlife” editorial, but a number of gender comps have as well.

Some of the writers or contributors or moderators of some of the following blogs are gender comps:

> (Link): Headship in Heaven According to CBMW

> (Link): Eternal Patriarchy? The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood says, “You Bet!”

> (Link): The Logical Fallacy of “Equal But Subordinate”

> (Link): (Forum discussion): Eternal submission of women to Men
Previous posts about this topic at this blog (parts 1 and 2):

Post 1. (Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group Teaching That There Will Be Marriage in Afterlife and That Women Must Submit To Males in Heaven

Post 2. (Link): Gender Complementarian Christians Who Teach Gender Inequality Even in Afterlife – an UPDATE

Kinda related:
(Link): Does head mean boss when it is connected to the body?

    This is the first in a series about marriage and the connection between marriage to women’s gifts in the church.

    Some people in an effort to keep women’s ministry gifts away from the benefit of men, teach that the term husband as the “head of the wife” means that men are to have authority over women and this eliminates women as having any kind of teaching authority in the body of Christ.

    So does the term “head” mean “boss over” or “authority over” when it is connected to the term “body”?

Related posts this blog:

(Link): The Irrelevancy To Single or Childless or Childfree Christian Women of Biblical Gender Complementarian Roles / Biblical Womanhood Teachings

(Link): Southern Baptist’s New Sexist “Biblical Womanhood” Site – Attitudes in Total Face Palm of a Site One Reason Among Many This Unmarried and Childless Woman Is Saying Toodle-Oo to Christianity

(Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group (CBMW) Anti Virginity and Anti Sexual Purity Stance (At Least Watered Down) – and their Anti Homosexual Marriage Position

Gender Complementarian Christians Who Teach Gender Inequality Even in Afterlife – an UPDATE

Gender Complementarian Christians Who Teach Gender Inequality Even in Afterlife – an UPDATE

Hat tip again to Julie Anne of the Spiritual Sounding Board who announced in a Tweet today that CBMW (which is a Christian gender complementarian group) removed a looney editorial by Walton from their site, which I wrote of in an earlier post, here:

(Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group Teaching That There Will Be Marriage in Afterlife and That Women Must Submit To Males in Heaven

Julie Anne wrote an update about the situation recently, here (at Spiritual Sounding Board):

(Link): Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Removes Article about Complementarian Roles in New Creation Did they change their minds?

    Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood removes Article about complementarian roles in new creation

    … Let’s be clear – – pulling the article does not mean CBMW has changed their ideology.

She also provided a link to the screen shot of the CBMW page, before it was removed, and it can be viewed here:
(Link): Screen capture of Weirdo “marriage in the afterlife” CBMW Page by Walton

Someone in the thread linked to this related material, from the Strange Figures blog:
(Link): A letter to our sisters, on biblical womanhood in heavenly places

The piece starts out serious (as you can see from the excerpt below), and the author goes into satire (not excerpted here):

    I think the author, Mark David Walton, has shown us the end toward which complementarian theology is heading. While Walton’s piece is several years old, it’s still out there as a resource and other articles have expressed the same idea – the gendered headship/submission model is not temporal. It’s eternal. Get used to it, ladies.

Julie Anne also mentioned that Owen Strachan is the Executive Director of CBMW, and Rachel Held Evans recently took Strachan to the woodshed here:

(Though I do have excerpts from Walton’s the page on (Link): my previous post as well, if you’d like to read for yourself some of the nutty things Walton wrote.)
Related posts, off site:

(Link): Complementarianism: even in its best form, it is Patriarchy

(Link): The “CAN’T” Chant of Complementarianism

(Link): Com­ple­men­tar­i­an­ism Sucks : Telling Women to Stay Quiet in the name of Jesus

(Link): Question to complementarians: What is my [single, adult woman] gender role?

I agree with point 3 on the list on this site (I do not, however, agree with the author that a literal understanding of the Bible should be rejected, or that the Bible supports homosexuality):
(Link): Reality: The Problem with Complementarianism
Related posts:

(Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group Teaching That There Will Be Marriage in Afterlife and That Women Must Submit To Males in Heaven (post at Spiritual Sounding Board)

(Link): The Irrelevancy To Single or Childless or Childfree Christian Women of Biblical Gender Complementarian Roles / Biblical Womanhood Teachings

(Link): Independent Fundamentalist Baptist College Kid Friendship Permission Form – Christians lowering marriage rates due to their own stupid teachings about sex, dating, marriage, etc

(Link): Christian Gender Complementarian Group (CBMW) Anti Virginity and Anti Sexual Purity Stance (At Least Watered Down) – and their Anti Homosexual Marriage Position

Married Father Wants Frequent Breaks From Being Married Father – If Family is Backbone of Society As Christians Teach….

Married Father Wants Frequent Breaks From Being Married Father – (If Family is Backbone of Society As Christians Teach….)

So this married guy who has two or three kids writes to advice columnist Ann Landers or Dear Abby or whatever saying he and his wife get into weekly or monthly arguments.

He wants to be able to go on weekly outings overnight with his male buddies with no wife and no kids, for extended poker games or whatever.

He wants to take two wife-less and two kid-less week long trips per year. This has has wife hopping mad.

You have conservative Christians constantly bleating how “family is the backbone of culture,” and how supposedly, marriage and parenthood automatically mature a person or bestow godliness on a person.

Obviously none of this nonsense is true, when you have grown men who are married with a kid or two who want to spend time away from the family, to run off and be with their beer- drinking, football watching, frat buddies. Give me a break.

This man obviously does not consider what he is doing – marriage and fatherhood – as being anything important to culture or society.

He does not care an iota if his family is a so-called “building block” of culture, as evangelicals, Reformed, fundamentalists, and Baptists so often say on their blogs, books, sermons, and television and radio shows.

He cares more about having his weekend, beer drinking, fun times escapades with his male buddies than he does in being a husband or daddy. So Christians can take their “looking down their nose” at childless adults and never-married adults and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

Here’s his letter.

Ask Amy: Dad demands monthly break from family


    Dear Amy:
    My wife and I have an ongoing dispute that threatens our family, which includes two young children, ages 2 and 5.

    I have a desire to visit my guy friends with overnight visits once a month and occasional longer trips with my brothers or guy friends about once every two years, to go skiing, camping, to the beach, etc.

    This seems to be too much for my wife, who makes a big stink. She feels I should only care about family and never leave her alone to take care of the kids.

    I’ve offered to have my mom watch the kids while I’m gone, but that’s not good enough. Also, I beg her to take similar trips with her friends or her sister while I watch the kids. She declines or says she can’t work it out.

    She has given in to my demands occasionally, but it is only after lengthy arguments.

    Do you think I am selfish or unjustified in my request?
    — Conflicted in South Carolina

    Dear Conflicted:
    The answer to your question is “yes” and “yes.” A monthly overnight with a biennial trip with the guys for a longer duration (conveniently unspecified) is too much.

    It might not be too much for some families, but it is too much for yours.

    I know this because you characterize this as a “demand” that threatens your family.

    Most mothers and fathers would love to take a fun overnight break from a 2- and 5-year-old 12 (sometimes 13) times a year, but building a family together requires that parents not have one foot out the door.

    You don’t mention wanting a monthly poker night after which you roll home in the wee hours.

    You need an overnight. When you make your demand, this is what your wife hears: “I don’t enjoy being a husband and father. I must escape our family as often as possible.”

    She is trying to control you because she is afraid you will flee for an overnight and simply keep on running.

    You and your wife need a night or two together away from the kids to reconnect as a couple and figure out a compromise that sounds less like a demand. You should plan this.

Related posts this blog:

(Link): Family as “The” Backbone of Society? – It’s Not In The Bible

(Link): Do Married Couples Slight Their Family Members as Well as Their Friends? / “Greedy Marriages”

(Link): How Can Conservatives and Christians Keep Teaching Family is Backbone of Society when there are so many dysfunctional or abusive familes

(Link): Misuse of Terms Such As “Traditional Families” by Christians – Re: Kirk Cameron, Homosexual Marriage, and the 2014 Grammys

(Link): The Term “Family Values” And Its Use By Christians – Vis A Vis story: Grandma Gives Teen Granddaughter a Vibrator

Males and Females Raped at Christian College, College Doesn’t Care – Equally Yoked is a Joke

Males and Females Raped at Christian College, College Doesn’t Care – Equally Yoked is a Joke

As I said on a previous post (this one to be exact), if you’re a single, female Christian who wants marriage, and you’re over 30, you don’t have many single Christian males to choose from.

If you want to marry, you will have to consider dating and marrying a Non Christian, regardless of the “be equally yoked” passage.

Plus, in the two years or more I’ve been skimming news stories to add to this blog, I have seen what appears to be a flood gate of incidents of Christian men (and sometimes women) who have admitted to, or been arrested for, pedophilia, rape, serial killing, stealing, drug abuse, prostitution solicitation.

You may meet an atheist or agnostic who has better morals than some of these Christian males – you really cannot afford to assume that because people interpret the “be equally yoked” verse to mean you can only marry another Christian that anyone claiming Christ is a safe bet.

This story was on SCCL group and appears on the Slacktivist blog. It’s about a woman who was raped, and also a male student who was raped (by other males) and the college did not care, and even accused the female rape victim of fornicated (and the guy who raped her is now working as a preacher some where!). Unbelievable.

(Link): Guest post: ‘God is Done with You’: Pensacola Christian College and Sexual Violence


    March 11, 2014
    By Fred Clark

    At Pensacola Christian College (PCC), a fundamentalist school similar in ideology and purpose to Bob Jones University and Patrick Henry College, there is a saying: “attending PCC is a privilege, not a right.” Students who attend here agree to abide by the Pathway, the school’s honor code, as well as signing an agreement that gives PCC the right to expel any student for any reason at any time.

    When Beth* and David* signed this agreement, they had no idea they were going to be expelled for being raped.

    Continue reading “Males and Females Raped at Christian College, College Doesn’t Care – Equally Yoked is a Joke”

Horny Celibacy – Another Anti Virginity, Anti Sexual Purity Essay – Also discussed: Being Equally Yoked, Divorce, Remarriage

Horny Celibacy – Another Anti Virginity, Anti Sexual Purity Essay – Also discussed: Being Equally Yoked, Divorce, Remarriage

All right. This one is interesting. I am actually rather sympathetic with some of this lady’s views and her reasons for arriving at the conclusions she has arrived at, some of them mirror my own. However, I feel she has a few points incorrect.

I think I have linked to her blog before, many months ago, concerning another topic. The lady that writes this blog was a Christian for many years (I think a fundamentalist or evangelical?), but somewhere along the way she got a divorce. I am not sure if she still considers herself a Christian.

If I remember the story from her blog correctly (I visited her blog months ago), the divorce and subsequent maltreatment by other Christians because of her divorce status caused her to reflect (and reject? I don’t remember) some of her former Christian beliefs. She probably has an “about” page at her blog you can read to get the details about her current views of faith.

Here is the link to her blog post that discusses celibacy, including her term “horny celibates”, and which I will be commenting on farther below:

Before I address her post itself, I wanted to discuss some of the issues it indirectly deals with, such as divorce.

I think most evangelicals, Baptists, and other Christians teach and believe incorrectly about marriage, divorce, and remarriage.

I do not believe the Bible teaches that divorce is applicable in cases of adultery only, or that re-marriage is sinful.

Some of these views are dangerous, in that the “permanence” view of marriage, which is taught by many Christians and preachers, can lead to some women being pressured to stay in an abusive marriage for years which is a waste of their time, and some of these ladies end up dead, murdered by their spouses.

You can read more about those topics at the following pages:

This site, A Cry For Justice, has many more posts about these issues, I am only linking to a small number here:


Being equally yoked is a belief Christian single women need to abandon, because it is one factor of several as to why they are staying single into their mid 30s and older.

Additionally, as many self-professing Christian males are abusive or negligent, and some Non-Christian males are loving, ethical, and supportive, it is important to Christian single women to recognize they need to judge men on the basis of character, not on if the male in question claims to have accepted Jesus as Savior, or if he prays, reads the Bible, or attends a church regularly.

The fact is, getting married to a Christian male is not a guarantee that you are getting a man who is going to love you, stay faithful to you, and be a good provider.

If you need examples (proof) of Christian men who misbehave, who raped women, had affairs on their wives, were into pedophilia, serial killing, stole from others, were drug addicts, or abused their wives, please see (Link): this partial list of such examples.

Given that so many genuine Christian women marry such abusive men makes the “maybe they (the abusive husbands) weren’t REAL Christians” argument moot.

Plenty of sincere, honest- to- goodness Christian women ended up with abusive, cheating, or negligent slobs who CLAIMED to be Christ followers and who had the outer trappings of what most would consider to be an actual, true Christian – whether these men who turned out to be abusive were truly “saved and regenerated” or not is beside the point and irrelevant to the women they were once married to.

We are talking about sincere, born again believers in Jesus who prayed, waited, hoped for, and expected to marry a CHRISTIAN man who would cherish them. But they ended up with Christian men who beat them, or who cheated on them repeatedly.

I do not know of any Christian single woman who sits about and day dreams, “I sure hope I marry a Christian man who beats me daily and tells me I’m worthless!”

I actually think teaching women that they can marry only other Christians is un-biblical, because it is placing an undue burden on them, and Christ said his burden is light.

But how Christians love to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Many Christians would rather Christian women remain single indefinitely in the guise of upholding “being equally yoked” as a doctrinal purity point…

Than realizing those women are entitled to some happiness and companionship while here on earth, even if that means them marrying an atheist.

The blog I linked to above, A Cry For Justice, has numerous examples of Christian women who married Christian men – they were “equally yoked” – and their Christian spouse
– I wrote their CHRISTIAN spouse there; that does not say “atheist,” “Jewish,” “Hindu” or “Muslim,” but CHRISTIAN spouse –
gave them daily verbal assaults that drove some to deep depression (and I’ve read of women who have been driven to suicidal impulses after enduring years of emotional abuse off a spouse), or, they received broken ribs and black eyes weekly or monthly – from their Christian spouse. Some of these Christian men are pastors or attend church weekly, too.

There is no rhyme or reason in telling a Christian woman she may only marry another Christian when there is no advantage to her in that, and it may in fact be a limitation and a burden, see (Link): Matthew 23:4, where Jesus discusses the Pharisees on a similar matter.

God created marriage for man, not man for marriage.

I want to write that again, but in a bigger sized font:

God created marriage for man, not man for marriage.

Too often, those who insist on a slavish devotion to “equally yoked,” or to no divorce or no remarriage, not ever ever!!!!!111!!! (or only in the most narrow of circumstances), appear to be placing rules and institutions above human beings (see this link, Luke 6:1-11).

Here are a few excerpts from the page by Hannah:

    Here is my best advice for good Christian kids looking to get married: have sex already.

    I’m watching too many couples play Russian roulette with their lives because they aren’t listening to their gut instincts about who they want or need to spend their lives with because they happened to have found one person somewhat enchanting and willing to play the Christian marriage game and the stakes are: your whole future on this decision, made in the worst possible state of mind, horny celibacy.

It appears to me she is confusing the topics of virginity and celibacy with early marriage.

I have said on this blog time and again that pushing early marriage, as evangelicals have been doing for the past couple of years, is not the solution for halting pre-martial sex.

Hannah continues:

    Hermeneutically speaking, St. Paul’s “it’s better to marry than to burn with passion” was probably not about what you think it’s about. All my books are in storage in boxes, so I’d love to have someone with an accessible library help me out with citations here, but it’s pretty widely accepted in schools of theology that he was talking about couples disturbing idealistic celibate communities by sneaking off to have sex and making everyone feel either jealous and upset.

    As in: don’t be Gnostic, early church! It’s okay to not require celibacy of all Christians. C.f., Reasons why no one should ever be forced into celibate living against their will. Not a lot of people have that gift, and that’s what Paul was acknowledging in that well-worn passage.

Celibacy is not a “gift.” The Bible nowhere teaches that God chooses who will remain single (celibate) and who will marry: in the New Testament, both are choices left up to each individual. I can only assume that is how she is intending the usage of that phrase there.

If I am not misunderstanding her here, I am afraid that Hannah is making the mistake that preacher Mark Driscoll, Doug Wilson, and a million other Christians make: they assume the only persons capable of remaining celibate are those who have been granted some kind of Sex Superpower by God, that God sprinkles magic dust on a baby at the time of her birth, and makes her magically able to resist sexual desire or sexual behavior.

I am still a virgin, and I am over 40 years old. I was engaged for several years and sometimes spent time alone – including over-night stays with my ex at his home – and we never had sex.

I experience sexual desire.

I did not choose to remain single; I had wanted to marry. God did not choose me to stay single or be single. God did not sprinkle me with Magic Sex Dust that makes me immune from sex or from having sexual desire.

My celibacy is due to this:
It’s good old-fashioned will power, and up to now, my former devotion to Christ and the Bible’s stance on sexuality, that kept me from caving in and doing the deed.

Every time Hannah, preacher Mark Driscoll, Doug Wilson, or other Christians chalk my celibacy up to The Supernatural, the Gifting of God, or God’s Grace, they are cheapening and making a mockery out of my hard work.

Mine. Me, me, me. God did not wave a wand and take away my sex drive, folks. It’s not God who kept me from engaging in pre marital sex, it was my own will power. It was my dedication.

There is nothing easy about being a virgin past your 20s, but it is possible.

I know Calvinists love to chalk everything, and I mean everything, up to God (I am not saying Hannah is a Calvinist, only I have seen this view expressed in their works), but the fact is I am a virgin because of me and my hard work – not due to Jesus Christ, grace of God, the glory of God, or any super power from on High.

The glory of my sexual purity goes to me…. me me me meeeeeeee. Not God.

Me. Me. Me. Me. I’m the one who has done the hard work of abstaining. God did not blow magic fairy dust on me at my birth or in eternity past to remove sexual desire. I do not feel any special “peace” about sex anytime I get sexually tempted.

An angel never did appear in the home of my ex when he and I were alone together when I was tempted – but I did not give in. It was all me. Me me me me me.

I was, and am, responsible for whether or not I cave in to sexual temptation. Choice and Personal Responsibility is what it’s all about, not God’s gifting or empowering.

That idiotic “gift of singleness,” and moronic “gift of celibacy” teaching unfortunately have these false views embedded in them: that God supposedly “chooses” someone to remain single, choosing them in eternity past to stay single; and that God supposedly gives such a person Special Powers and/or erodes all sex drive from them to make life as a celibate bearable. This sort of teaching (which is false and not biblical), removes Personal Responsibility, Free Will, and Choice from the equation.

And I’m no Calvinist: mankind has free will, and the will to choose to do what is good and right, not only evil.

Hannah continues:

    But what that passage doesn’t say (and honestly, what no passage in the Bible says) is “God’s best plan for your life is to be a virgin when you get married.” Seriously. Look for it. It’s not there.

Well, no, it does not say that explicitly, but the Bible does teach that one is to remain a virgin until marriage. The Bible may not tack on the phrase “it’s God’s best plan for your life” before the teaching, or after it, but the notion of “having pre marital sex is sinful” is still in the Bible.

Remaining celibate is a wiser life style choice, in that the individual who is not fooling around does not have to worry about getting STI’s (STDs), or getting pregnant, or being used.

But I think that’s all beside the point. While I can see how it is of benefit to a person to remain celibate until marriage, the Bible presents sexual sin as being a sin against God and against your own body.

Hannah writes,

    So we started searching the Bible ourselves and we haven’t found a much biblical basis for Christian purity culture and how it treats virginity and sexual experience.

The concept of sexual purity is indeed in the Bible, regardless of how screw-ball and legalistic fundamentalists treat the topic. And good Lord knows many conservative Christians are weird and legalistic about sex, I realize that.

But fundamentalists, Reformed, evangelicals and Southern Baptists being mean- spirited, kooky, or crazy about how they teach about such topics and present them to kids, women, or singles does not legitimize trying to argue away texts in the Bible that do support the notion of virginity until marriage, or in trying to find loop holes for them.

Hannah writes,

    Therefore I believe, based on my research, that it’s possible to have consensual, safe, and private sex* outside of marriage and not be transgressing any of the basic ethical guidelines for sexual behavior as laid out in the Bible.

This strikes me as quite similar to homosexuals who claim to find loopholes in the Bible that pardon homosexual sex. Homosexual apologists will argue, for instance, that the Sodom story was not condemning consensual homosexual sex, but only the forced variety (i.e., male- on- male rape). I provided links on a previous post to material that argue against such points (see that list of links here, they are listed about half way down the page).

It’s almost genius the lengths some will go to in order to find excuses to practice or defend behavior that the Bible forbids.

My stance is this: if you are an adult, you are free to make whatever choices you want to, including some pre- or extra- marital nooky.

But please don’t try to argue for it on the basis that the Bible is really hunky dory fine with it, when in fact, it’s pretty clear ((Link): yes clear) it’s not.

Have all the extra marital sex you want, but please, don’t try to insist the Bible is fine and peachy with it. That is just lame and intellectually dishonest.
– (Says someone who is a virgin at age 40+, who fully intends on getting into pre marital boinking whenever she gets in a serious relationship but who will not blog and argue that the Bible is really okay with it. Do what you want, but be honest about it.)

Hannah writes,

    Christian culture over-values virginity at marriage so much that it heightens to an unreasonable degree the tension of an already momentous and risky decision.

Oh stop it, you’re making my side split from all the laughter! As in tee hee hee, 😆

If there is one thing Christian culture does NOT do is over-value virginity, not at marriage, and sure as heck not over a lifetime. That is what this whole blog is about. (And Hugh Jackman photos. This blog is also about the occasional (Link): Hugh Jackman photo.)

Examples of what I am talking about (I have many such stories on this blog, this is only a partial listing):

Er, yeah, I am not seeing a lot of judgment there and not much over-valuing, either.

These days, Christians, even ones who claim to be “biblical,” who say they are conservative, who claim to value “traditional marriage” and “the family” now attack virginity and celibacy and keep reassuring the fornicators that they are fine and dandy in their fornicating.

Hannah says,

    1) we are required to take them at their word that sex is life-changing and terrible (in both senses of that word)

I’m not sure what this is about. Most commentary I have seen, heard, or read from Christians who advocate celibacy until marriage say how AWESOME sex is, not how “terrible” it is… it’s said to be “mind blowing” if one waits until marriage to have sex. Frequently, Christians say how great sex is, but that God intends for it to take place in marriage only. I’ve not heard Christians bill sex as “terrible.”

Unless she means the standard Christian scare-tactics of, “You can get an STI (sexually transmitted infection) if you have sex before marriage.”

But then, you can be a virgin woman on your wedding night, stay faithful to your spouse, and if your Christian spouse starts having affairs, he can pass an STI on to the wife. Food for thought.

Hannah continues,

    The bogey of sex thus becomes a looming question mark for us and the already-significant risks of choosing to get married to someone become exponentially more risky because there’s a huge piece of the marriage-choice puzzle that we are required to leave up to chance (which our good mentors have named God’s Will to keep us quiet).

    … we have to not question what our parents and pastors have told us—which is, essentially, that everything I just laid out in layman’s hermeneutics about biblical sexual ethics is lies and that God’s best plan for sexuality is total ignorance and total commitment to one person and one form of sexual experience forever and ever, amen—and to jump through all the Christian social hoops to land in bed with someone and not get ostracized or shamed for wanting to have sex in the first place.

    … and you got married because that was the only way to explore your sexuality and stay sane in the face of such overwhelming social pressure and potential shame, and if you’re really lucky you’ll both be moderately happy and mostly sexually compatible

I sincerely hope she is not attempting to utilize the typical ex-Christian, Non-Christian, or liberal Christian argument that you should have sex with someone (ie, your boyfriend) prior to marriage to find out if you are “sexually compatible” with the person. Could be wrong, but that sounds like what she is getting at.

If that is what she was hinting at, I addressed that in a previous post:

Hannah writes,

    But the chances of ending up with that ending to your story are pretty slim—and after my marriage ended, the stories of unhappy marriages launched on these terms started coming to me out of the woodwork. Our pastors and parents may adore Dannah Gresh, Josh Harris, and the Ludys, but those relationship and purity gurus are the lucky ones selling their stories through books and speaking events. They do not represent the vast majority of American Christians, and while they mean well, their idyllic solutions have shortchanged most people who bought into their system out of blind trust.

    So, as a divorced woman who did everything right by the assumptions of that system and found that it was full of empty promises…

I do think she is on to something here, in a sense. When I was growing up as a Christian, I had many other Christians and their publications telling me, or strongly implying, that if I stayed a virgin, prayed, had faith and simply waited, that God would send me a Christian spouse. But that never happened.

I remain single in my 40s, despite being sexually pure, despite praying, having faith, and so on. Christian singles, the women especially, were sold a bill of goods when younger. We were misled.

Overall, she wrote a decent post there that you may enjoy, but I’m not buying the notion that the Bible is peachy fine dandy with pre-marital sex.
Related posts, this blog:

(Link): Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re Celibacy

(Link): When Adult Virginity and Adult Celibacy Are Viewed As Inconvenient or As Impediments (including by self professing Christians)

(Link): Weak Argument Against Celibacy / Virginity / Sexual Purity by the Anti Sexual Purity Gestapo – Sexual Compatibility or Incompatibility – (ie, Taking Human Beings For Test Spins – Humans As Sexual Commodities) (Part 2)

This post discusses, among other topics, Rev Mark Driscoll’s false views of adult singlehood and celibacy:
(Link): Preacher Mark Driscoll Basically Says No, Single Christian Males Cannot or Should Not Serve as Preachers / in Leadership Positions – Attempts to Justify Unbiblical, Anti Singleness Christian Bias

(Link): The Nauseating Push by Evangelicals for Early Marriage

(Link): Decent Secular Relationship Advice: How to Pick Your Life Partner

(Link): Why Christians Need to Uphold Lifelong Celibacy as an Option for All Instead of Merely Pressuring All to Marry – vis a vis Sexless Marriages, Counselors Who Tell Marrieds that Having Affairs Can Help their Marriages

(Link): More Married Couples Admit to Sexless Marriages (various articles) / Christians promise you great frequent sex if you wait until marriage, but the propaganda is not true

(Link): Gender Complementarian Advice to Single Women Who Desire Marriage Will Keep Them Single Forever / Re: Choosing A Spiritual Leader

(Link): Celebrity Deems Herself A Born Again Virgin And Vows to Stay Celibate “For A Year” – Oh Puh-leaze

(Link): How About Using Celibates as Role Models For Celibacy? (Oddity: Christians Holding Up Non-Virgins [Fornicators] As Being Experts or Positive Examples on Sexual Purity)

(Link): Being Equally Yoked: Christian Columnist Dan Delzell Striving to Keep Christian Singles Single Forever

(Link): Christian Single Women: Another Example of Why You Should Abandon the “Be Equally Yoked” Teaching: 21-Year Old Christianity Student, Children’s Minister Charged With Murdering Fiancée He Was to Wed in August; Made It Look Like Suicide

(Link): Wife of Preacher Shoots, Kills Him, Recounts Years of Physical and Sexual Abuse – So Much for the Equally Yoked Teaching and the Notion that Christian married sex is Mind Blowing

(Link): Pro Ball Player Convicted for Kid Diddling Three Kids (Pedophilia) Claims to be an Outstanding Christian (and he’s married with a kid of his own) – again, why should Christian single gals limit themselves to only marrying Christian men? The Whole “Being Yoked Equally” thing is irrelevant and unduly limiting for singles

Modesty Teachings – When Mormons Sound like Christians and Gender Complementarians

Modesty Teachings – When Mormons Sound like Christians and Gender Complementarians

It’s creepy and alarming at times how some Christians wind up with beliefs or theology that sounds a lot like the things cults and what all believe, from Calvinism’s mirroring of Islam’s view of God, Christian gender complementarian views mirroring those of Islamic view of women, and the modesty and chastity teachings of Mormons.

While I am not an advocate of either men or women dressing slutty, I’m puzzled by some dress codes and think modesty teachings are, overall, pretty moronic as well as hypocritical, as all emphasis is placed upon females.

I’ve yet to deduce how or why American males find female arms sexy – some of them, after all, in their modesty teachings, teach girls and women to keep their arms covered. Some Christians (and Mormons) are against any top or blouse with spaghetti straps. I have no idea why, as there is nothing terribly sexy or tawdry about spaghetti straps.

I don’t think I agree with the comment in this page by a Mormon that
“Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity,” since a woman (or man) can be just as slutty in baggy jeans and while wearing a parka as a woman in stiletto heels and a mini-skirt (or for men, tight jeans and a tank or mesh shirt). It’s not the packaging, but the behavior.

I don’t have the quote below, but in the article, so intense is this stupid modesty teaching among females in Mormonism, that there is an anecdote about a four year old girl who refuses to go to the zoo with her granny until granny helps her put a t-shirt under her sun dress.

A four year old girl should not even be thinking in terms of sexuality, modesty, etc. I believe religious teachings that start out with good intentions do a lot of damage to their adherents, modesty being one of them.

(Link): Does Mormon modesty mantra reduce women to sex objects?


    Peggy Fletcher Stack / Salt Lake Tribune
    Mar 4, 2014

    SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) When Mormon leaders sense a decline of moral standards in the world, they roll out sermons on modesty.

    In the 1960s and early ’70s, they preached against miniskirts and hot pants; in today’s sex-drenched society, it’s spaghetti straps, bare midriffs and skinny jeans.

    The message remains largely the same: Cover up, lest you cause the males around you to sin.

    It’s often couched in the rhetoric of “virtue” and usually aimed at young women, even girls.

    “Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity,” former Young Women leader Elaine S. Dalton said in the May 2007 Liahona, an international LDS magazine. “Just as one does not hike trails inhabited by rattlesnakes barefoot, similarly in today’s world it is essential to our very safety to be modest.”

    The next year, the Utah-based faith’s Young Women program added “virtue” as one of the values to which Mormon girls ages 12- 17 should strive, but it was defined chiefly as sexual purity or chastity.

    This concern has reached down to girls as young as 4.

    …. Bare shoulders, even on children, are off-limits in LDS Church publications. An illustration in the December 2011 Ensign, the official magazine for adult Mormons, even added sleeves to female angels in one of painter Carl Bloch’s masterpieces.

    Continue reading “Modesty Teachings – When Mormons Sound like Christians and Gender Complementarians”

The “Feminization” of the Church by K R Wordgazer

The “Feminization” of the Church by K R Wordgazer

Followers of Christ are called to model all of his behaviors: if you are a man, that means emulating Jesus not only when he displayed what we consider manly traits such as assertiveness and daring, but also the feminine ones: gentleness and humbleness. If you are a woman, you are called not only to emulate the sweet and tender side of Jesus, but his tough side, as well.

Why more Christians do not understand this and embrace it, I do not understand. But your gender complementarian Christians promote the very opposite: they instruct men to follow only the rough, tough side of Jesus and instruct women to follow the meek- and- mild side of the Savior.

Here is the blog link under consideration in this post:

(Link): The “Feminization” of the Church

I abhor it when Christians complain about church being too girly. The link you see above? Its author is also tired and upset about this as well.

My view on this has changed a little bit. I used to be a little more understanding about men who feel out of place at church, but considering the staggering amount of sexism against women in churches, especially against never married and childless women, I’m no longer quite as sympathetic.

And I abhor even more than that that they go and mess things up by trying to make Christianity or church more “manly,” or, they try to recast Jesus Christ as being a beer-drinking, belching, farting, quasi stoner – tough guy who sits around in a recliner in his boxers all day watching NFL games. A sort of Seth Rogen or Andrew Dice Clay, if you will.

I don’t think Jesus Christ was girly girl, but nor do I think he was a cage-fight watching, beer- can- crushing neanderthal who made sexist jokes about what poor drivers women are, and how ‘chicks’ are ‘too emotional.’

You would think as a person who was single, a female, who was Christian for many years, who desired marriage, who has noticed in frustration that churches suffer a great lack of single adult males for me to choose from, that I would be thrilled, just totally THRILLED, with churches trying to butch things up to attract more males, but no, I’m not.

I don’t think the solution to getting more dudes to attend church is to make church more of a pub, bar brawling, NASCAR, NFL, frat boy experience.

I resent churches pinning the blame on low male church attendance on the female gender for several reasons.

One of which is that by saying stereotypical female qualities are horrible for a church to have is to somehow say women themselves are terrible. It’s a round-about way of being sexist and slamming women themselves, though I’m not sure how to articulate this thought.

Next up is the fact that it further marginalizes someone like myself even more than I already am by most churches.

I have never fully been the picture of “biblical womanhood” that gender complementarians preach and harp about, and these are usually the ones pushing for Christians to make Jesus or the church “more masculine.”

Not only am I still not married in my 40s and without children – and gender complementarians put wifehood and motherhood on pedestals and say that a woman’s only calling in life by God is to be both – but I’ve always been a tom boy, to a degree.

Yes, I have some traits that gender complementarians would consider feminine and girly, but I am not, nor have I ever been, a 100% girly girl, pink-wearing, Barbie-doll-playing, type of female.

Yes, I wear eye liner, lip stick, mascara, and sometimes dresses and high heels and look feminine.

However, I have some hobbies, interests, and attitudes gender complementarians would consider masculine.

So, I do not appreciate femininity being boiled down to a very narrow set of roles or ideas, such as, one who is always passive, wears pink, is quiet, sweet, loving, and obsessed about baking, fashion, and nail polish.

I would encourage you to read this following blog page by KR WordGazer. The whole post is so good, I can’t pick just a bit to excerpt here. It’s hard to choose just two or three paragraphs.

(Link): The “Feminization” of the Church

Even though it’s very hard to excerpt this because all of it is excellent, here are a few of my favorite parts:

    The article also quotes David Murrow, author of Why Men Hate Going to Church (Thomas Nelson, 2004):
    “[W]omen believe the purpose of Christianity is to find “a happy relationship with a wonderful man”—Jesus—whereas men recognize God’s call to “save the world against impossible odds.” . . . While the church was masculine, it fulfilled its purpose. But in the 19th century, women “began remaking the church in their image” (and they continue to do so), which moved the church off course.

Needless to say, this line of thinking isn’t exactly complimentary to women! It implies that whatever is “feminine” encapsulates everything that’s gone wrong with the church.

A popular book on the subject even goes so far as to take the title The Church Impotent – because apparently a majority of women in the church means the church is emasculated, and therefore powerless and ineffectual.

Even though men still hold the vast majority of the leadership positions.

She has a subheading called “Why are there more women than men in most churches?,” and farther under that heading are these thoughts:

    This Forbes article defines”gender contamination” as the idea that when something is perceived as being a women’s thing, men want nothing to do with it. It’s the reason why men won’t drink “diet” soda and have had to have differently-named low-calorie versions marketed specially to them.

It’s the reason why men resist using lotions and moisturizers even if they have neutral, non-flowery scents, and why some companies advertise their products by denigrating competitors with such words as “precious” and “princess.”

In short, in our “male mystique” focused society, boys who believe girls have cooties still believe deep-down, when they grow into men, that women have cooties too.

There are still some very deep-rooted misogynistic elements in modern Western culture– and this, I think, has a lot to do with why evangelicals like Mark Driscoll and the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood are so distressed at the idea that churches are “feminized.”

If churches have more women in them, then churches themselves have cooties, and it’s up to the biblical manhood movement to remove the stigma by masculinizing the church.

She goes on to quote an editorial from Christianity Today which I found interesting:

    Christian Copyright Licensing International (CCLI) lists the 100 most frequently used songs in its database.

If contemporary praise music is problematically feminine in both lyrics and tone, as the Driscoll-Murrow crowd avers, we should expect the top 100 list to be dominated—or at least infiltrated—by women.

In fact, however, the list includes 145 male and 16 female composers. Thus more than 90 percent of the composers writing today’s most popular praise songs are male!

Continue reading “The “Feminization” of the Church by K R Wordgazer”

Gender Complementarian Advice to Single Women Who Desire Marriage Will Keep Them Single Forever / Re: Choosing A Spiritual Leader

Gender Complementarian Advice to Single Women Who Desire Marriage Will Keep Them Single Forever / Re: Choosing A Spiritual Leader

Usually, I am not a fan of the “and that’s why you’re still single” view dished out in Lonely Hearts columns, but can I tell you, if you are a single Christian woman wondering why it is you’re 35, 45, or 55 years old and still single – though you want marriage – it may just be that you have too many qualifications you insist a man must meet before you will consider marrying him.

This isn’t quite the same thing as scolding a woman for “being too picky.”

Often, being “too picky” is distorted by critics of singles to mean that “you insist every man look like actor Brad Pitt and be a multi-millionaire,” when, usually, a woman who is “being too picky” is merely holding out for a solid, average guy, someone who has a steady job and who will treat her well.

And there’s nothing wrong with having standards, ladies.

Don’t settle for some ugly, fat, broke, and/or abusive guy just for the sake of being married, or getting your marriage-obsessed family to back off.

No, I’m not talking about being picky (having standards). I’m talking about erecting all manner of laughable, unwise, unduly limiting, idiotic restrictions on to mate selection that some Christians recommend you do, such as only be willing to marry a Christian man if he is your “spiritual leader” or if he goes to church every week.

From the ladies’ section of Christianity Today online magazine:

(Link): Advice to Women: Marry an Evangelist by Megan Hill

This seems to be a newish trend with Christians, erecting more and more criteria to what they feel – not what the Bible says, but what they feel – a Christian woman should insist upon in a partner.

For example, take this moronic, legalistic advice to single women from preacher Mark Driscoll:

See how that’s designed to limit the number of potential mates a single Christian woman may choose from? Yeah, and it’s not helpful.

Look, in my Christian days, all I was looking for in a guy (in- so- far as religious traits were concerned) was that the guy was a sincere Christian.

I was not even insisting and demanding that a suitor had to be more spiritually mature than me, be my spiritual head, lead me in prayer, be at the same level as me spiritual-maturity-wise, or know the Bible better than me, or attend church weekly. And I am still single in my 40s.

There are not a lot of men out there who meet the Basic Christian Criteria – which is, the guy accepted Christ as Savior, so what makes the author, Hill, believe a single woman cannot only get a Christian (a man who accepted Christ as savior), but also one who is her “spiritual leader”?

Continue reading “Gender Complementarian Advice to Single Women Who Desire Marriage Will Keep Them Single Forever / Re: Choosing A Spiritual Leader”

The Myth of Traditional Marriage by S. Chapman

The Myth of Traditional Marriage by S. Chapman

I am posting this because I found portions of it interesting in so far as it knocks a few holes in the Christian tendency to worship HETEROsexual marriage and gender complementarianism (aka “biblical womanhood and manhood”).

(Link): The Myth of Traditional Marriage by S. Chapman


    Feb 9, 2014
    S. Chapman

    …. In the battle over same-sex marriage, opponents are strongly in favor of deferring to the wisdom of our ancestors. Indiana Gov. Mike Pence uses the prevailing formula when he says, “I support traditional marriage.” The Christian Coalition of America urges its friends to “Say ‘I Do’ to Traditional Marriage.”

    … But this approach has another major flaw: What conservatives regard as traditional marriage is not very traditional at all. It’s radically different from what prevailed a century or two centuries ago. And if you want to talk about “thousands of years,” you’ll find that almost everything about marriage has changed.

    The biblical King Solomon, after all, was a dedicated polygamist, with 700 wives. Monogamy has always been the norm in Christianity, but not as part of a marriage of equals.

    The 18th-century English jurist William Blackstone explained, “By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in the law; that is, the very being or legal existence of a woman is suspended, or at least incorporated or consolidated into that of the husband, under whose wing, protection, or cover she performs everything.”

    Women generally couldn’t enter into contracts without permission from their husbands. In legal status, they were a notch above sheep and goats. In America, it was not until well into the 19th century that states began to grant married women something resembling full property rights.

    Even then, marriage had attributes that traditionalists would like to forget. Husbands who forced themselves on their wives were not guilty of rape, since they were legally entitled to sexual access. Contraception was forbidden in many states. Only in 1965 did the Supreme Court decide that such laws “violate the right of marital privacy.”

    The ideal of marriage enshrined in the 1950s reflects a myopic nostalgia for a phase that didn’t last. The 1960s brought no-fault divorce, which allowed wives as well as husbands to dissolve their bonds without proving some terrible transgression by the spouse.

    This was an earthquake, causing unprecedented numbers of unions to collapse. A writer for the conservative Family Research Council said that under no-fault divorce laws, marriage became “nothing more than notarized dating.” Maggie Gallagher of the National Organization for Marriage said their effect was nothing less than “the abolition of marriage.”

    In a sense, she’s right. But you don’t see many conservatives trying to repeal no-fault laws in the name of “traditional marriage.” Gallagher misses the more fundamental point: This institution is not something passed down unaltered from generation to generation, like the family silver. It is continually in flux, taking forms that would surprise our forebears.

    Marriage, like transportation, has always been a part of human existence. But riding a donkey is very different from flying in a jet, and modern marriage has only superficial similarity to what went before.

Related posts, this blog:

(Link): Misuse of Terms Such As “Traditional Families” by Christians – Re: Kirk Cameron, Homosexual Marriage, and the 2014 Grammys

(Link): Conservative Christianity Stuck in 1950s Leave it To Beaver-ville

(Link): The Irrelevancy To Single or Childless or Childfree Christian Women of Biblical Gender Complementarian Roles / Biblical Womanhood Teachings

Deacon at Fairview Heights church accused of sexually abusing boys

Deacon at Fairview Heights church accused of sexually abusing boys

Standard disclaimer: Being married and a parent, or saying you are a Christian, or working as a preacher, does not automatically make you more godly, ethical, or loving than anyone else.
And single Christian ladies who’d like to get married: time to give up on the “be equally yoked” teaching, since so many Christian men are rapists and perverts.

(Link): Deacon at Fairview Heights church accused of sexually abusing boys

    February 13, 2014 6:30 pm • By Paul Hampel

    SHILOH • A deacon at a Baptist church in Fairview Heights is accused of sexually abusing boys from youth groups at his home in Shiloh.

    Jeffrey Strait, 47, was charged Wednesday in St. Clair County Circuit Court with four counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse of minors. He was jailed with bail set at $500,000.

    The charges allege that he abused children who were older than 13 but under 17, at his home in the 2700 block of Lake Lucerne Drive.

    Police said he is a deacon at the First Baptist Church of Fairview Heights, and that he met the victims through his work with youth groups.

    “We are confident that none of these acts were committed at the First Baptist Church and that no other personnel at the church knew that the offenses were being committed,” Shiloh police said in statement.

    Police Sgt. Kyle Bade said that all of the victims known to authorities are boys. He said the crimes began in 2008 and continued until recently.

Let Us Prey: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church – article about sexual abuse in Baptist churches

Let Us Prey: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church – article about sexual abuse in Baptist churches

Standard disclaimer: Being married and a parent, or saying you are a Christian, or working as a preacher, does not automatically make you more godly, ethical, or loving than anyone else.
And single Christian ladies who’d like to get married: time to give up on the “be equally yoked” teaching, since so many Christian men are rapists and perverts.

I blogged about one of the pervy idiots mentioned in the article before, here:

Notice in the article below that one of the sexual assault victims was depicted as being a “temptress.”

I have blogged on something along those lines before, please see

(Link): Let Us Prey: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church

    A string of assaults and sexual crimes committed by pastors across the country have one thing in common: The perpetrators have ties to the megachurch in Hammond, Indiana.


    PUBLISHED DEC. 11, 2012

    … [Baptist preacher] Schaap continued to rub the stick—up and down, up and down—and converse with God, sometimes angrily, sometimes ecstatically, for more than a minute. What he was doing was unmistakable: simulating masturbation, in front of thousands of children, in the middle of a church service. A row of white-coated high-ranking churchmen seated behind Schaap watched in silence. At the end, as usual, young men streamed up to the stage.

    … The true believers of the ultrafundamentalist Independent Baptist movement were accustomed to Schaap’s style.

    If he wasn’t scolding his flock for not living up to God’s demands (tithing, volunteering, “soul winning”), he was delivering R-rated sermons that, for example, likened the Lord’s Supper to having sex with Jesus Christ. “He would just repeatedly talk about sex and repeatedly talk about women, how they were dressed and body parts . . . in graphic detail,” recalls Tom Brennan, who attended the church for six years and is now an Independent Baptist pastor at Maplewood Bible Baptist Church in Chicago.

    Unfortunately, it went well beyond talk. Last September, Schaap, 54, a married father of two, pleaded guilty to taking a 16-year-old girl he was counseling at First Baptist across state lines to have sex. Denied bond, he awaits sentencing in the Porter County Jail; the minimum term is ten years.

    But Schaap is not simply one of those rogue evangelists who thunders against the evils of forbidden sex while indulging in it himself. According to dozens of current and former church members, religion experts, and historians interviewed by Chicago—plus a review of thousands of pages of court documents— he is part of what some call a deeply embedded culture of misogyny and sexual and physical abuse at one of the nation’s largest churches.

    Continue reading “Let Us Prey: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church – article about sexual abuse in Baptist churches”