No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

No Man’s Land – Part 2 – On Post Evangelicals or Ex Christians or Liberal Christians Ignorantly Hopping Aboard Belief Sets They Once Rejected

✹ What follows is actually the heart of my “No Man’s Land” view. This is what prompted me to write it: ✹

✹ TAKING THE OPPOSITE POSITION OF WHAT YOU USED TO BELIEVE BUT NOW HATE – DUE TO EMOTIONAL REASONS OR A KNEE JERK RESPONSE OR FROM SPITE – IS JUST AS WRONG AND MISTAKEN ✹

As to the forums and blogs by ex Christians, liberal Christians, self identifying post-evangelicals, or those still Christian who expose spiritual abuse…

I notice a number of the regular visitors to these sites – the ones who left an abusive or legalistic church or denomination – simply now operate in the reverse in their thinking, which is, IMO, just as bad or wrong as the thinking they are leaving.

There are different types of ex-Christians one must take into consideration when discussing this topic, so I shall present some sketches of them first.

IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists)

For example, there are ex IFBs (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists).

IFB preachers and churches are ridiculously legalistic. They make up rules that are not in the Bible, or twist or exaggerate the rules already there to the point those rules then become unbiblical.

IFBs are the contemporary, American versions of the Bible’s Pharisees: nit picky, anal retentive, legalists who make up man-made rules but insist they are “biblical” and thus binding on all believers.

IFBs concoct man-made traditions they expect all IFB members to adhere to, just like the Roman Catholic hierarchy does towards Roman Catholic members.

For example, IFB churches are legalistic about secular entertainment and clothing and physical appearance.

IFB churches teach their congregations that women should not wear pants but only skirts. And the skirts should be only so many inches above or below the knee.

According to IFBs, men should not have hair that touches the back shirt collar – not a mullet to be found in IFB, which may be a good thing. Secular music and television is sinful and should always be avoided.

IFBs have other legalistic rules for just about every aspect of life.

IFBs are vehemently anti-Roman Catholicism as well as anti-Calvinism.

P.T.S.D. is Not Biblical Says K. Copeland and Barton

P.T.S.D. is Not Biblical Says K. Copeland and D. Barton

I don’t intend to make this blog “cutting edge.” This story I am linking to here (farther below) came out two, three, or more days ago. You’ve probably heard about it already on other blogs or in the news.

I sometimes wait a few days (or a week or more) before I mention something on this blog that piques my interest or ire.

Other than the singles issue (that is, Christians in Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Neo-Calvinist/Reformed, and Baptist churches tend to treat the un-married and childless like losers, if they bother to acknowledge singles at all), a few other topics get me worked up, and another one is how a lot of Christians treat mental health problems.

This isn’t a topic I want to blog about too much here on a regular basis, but every so often, I will address it.

From my childhood until a few years ago, I had clinical depression as well as a few other mental health problems. I was professionally diagnosed by psychiatrists.

Those problems have mostly cleared up now. But years of reading the Bible, praying, and “standing on the promises of Scripture,” did nothing to ease the depression or lift it (or the other problems I had).

Serving other people, working in soup kitchens, and all the usual advice one gets from Christians that was supposed to lift the depression did not help me, either.

For years, I would see preachers on TV or in blogs blame Christians who have depression for the depression (or for any other mental health problems they may have).

Some preachers and Christian lay persons would say if you have depression, it is because God is punishing you, you are not praying hard enough, you lack faith, you have unconfessed sin in your life, and a million other reasons.

Some of the Christians I saw on television or on blogs and forums, from everyday folks to famous preachers, would tell you that using medication or seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist is sinful or shows a lack of faith, so they would discourage any of that.

Some Christian online ministries even go so far as to deny that Christians can develop mental health issues to start with.

Two administrators at one Christian site I contacted several years ago said if I had depression, I obviously was not “really” a Christian, because “real Christians do not have depression.”

Many Christians are extremely ignorant and prejudiced concerning depression and other mental health maladies, and against those who suffer from the mental health problems.

Here is another example.

Christian historian David Barton (who is controversial; he is not considered a fully competent historian by many other historians, both Christians and NonChristians), and Kenneth Copeland, who is a Word of Faith heretic, recently made some very controversial comments about PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).

Essentially, both men said in a recent broadcast on Copeland’s television show that Christian military personnel who have PTSD should not rely on medicine or medical care for treatment, but only rely on the promises in the Bible.

By the way, a lot of people who are not military personnel also have P.T.S.D., such as adult survivors of childhood abuse, and women who have been raped.

You can read more about Copeland’s and Barton’s nonsense here
(A word about the links below: bear in mind some of the sources I cite here are either left wing or hostile to Christians; I am quasi- Christian quasi- agnostic, critical of some aspects of Christianity, though I don’t hate all of the faith or all Christians, and I am right wing, not left wing):

(Link): David Barton and Kenneth Copeland: PTSD isn’t biblical, The State

(Link): David Barton & Kenneth Copeland: PTSD isn’t biblical, Houston Chronicle

November 14, 2013

(RNS) On a Veterans Day broadcast program, televangelist Kenneth Copeland and controversial historian David Barton told listeners that soldiers should never experience guilt or post-traumatic stress disorder after returning from military service.

Reading from Numbers 32: 20-22, Copeland said, “So this is a promise — if you do this thing, if you arm yourselves before the Lord for the war … you shall return, you’re coming back, and be guiltless before the Lord and before the nation.”

“Any of you suffering from PTSD right now, you listen to me,” Copeland said as Barton affirmed him. “You get rid of that right now. You don’t take drugs to get rid of it. It doesn’t take psychology. That promise right there will get rid of it.”

Barton added that many biblical warriors “took so many people out in battle,” but did so in the name of God.

“You’re on an elevated platform up here. You’re a hero, you’re put in the faith hall of fame,” Barton said. “… When you do it God’s way, not only are you guiltless for having done that, you’re esteemed.”

… “It is obvious that they do not have knowledge of the condition,” said Warren Throckmorton, a Grove City College psychology professor who has written on Barton. “Copeland and Barton err theologically as well by taking specific Scriptures written in relationship to Israel and apply them to American armies.”

Measles Outbreak in Word of Faith Church

Measles Outbreak in Word of Faith Church

(Link): Texas Measles Outbreak Linked to Church Led by Kenneth Copeland’s Daughter; Infection Spreads to Congregation, Staff, Day Care

LOL! LOL! Using WOF thelogy against these WOFers: they got sick because they weren’t tithing regularly, they lacked faith, they weren’t praying hard enough, and they obviously, at some point, were making NEGATIVE CONFESSIONS! LOL! 😆

I hate WoF (“Prosperity Gospel”).

From the article

by NICOLA MENZIE , CHRISTIAN POST REPORTER
August 26, 2013

Texas has been identified as ground zero for the latest measles outbreak after 25 cases were recently reported and at least 15 of those cases are tied to Eagle Mountain International Church in the city of Newark. The church is led by Terri Pearsons, the oldest daughter of televangelist Kenneth Copeland who has linked child vaccinations to autism.

The unidentified visitor is said to have infected members of the congregation, staff at Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and the church’s on-site daycare center. The virus is spread through the air by breathing, coughing or sneezing.

No, the virus is spread by making NEGATIVE CONFESSIONS, don’t these dweebs know anything?? 😆

You’re supposed to loudly proclaim, “O virus, I order you in the name of Jesus to leave mah body!”

Scandals Galore at TBN – financial, sexual

A lot of new scandals broke out among TBN staff, including allegations of rape cover ups, extra marital affairs, financial abuse, etc

Family Battle Offers Look Inside Lavish TV Ministry

The Trouble with TBN, from Christianity Today

TBN’s Promise: Send Money and See Riches – Los Angeles Times, 2004

TBN extravagance? Read internal memos for yourself

Deathbed Struggle at TBN

Suit alleges TBN covered up rape of 13-year-old

A granddaughter of Trinity Broadcasting Network founders Jan and Paul Crouch filed a lawsuit Monday alleging that she was plied with alcohol and raped by a TBN employee when she was just 13 — and that her family covered up the incident, rather than report it to authorities, to protect TBN’s reputation.

Carra Crouch, now 19, was distraught after the 2006 assault by a 30-year-old man, and told her grandmother what had happened. “Jan (Crouch) became furious and began screaming at Ms. Crouch, a thirteen year old girl, and began telling her ‘it is your fault,’” according to the suit.

Relatives threatened to ‘destroy’ Crouch granddaughter

Age discrimination by TBN owners, staff:

TBN suit: Senior workers ‘too old, too sick, and too lazy’

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Related:

(Link): Christian Network TBN Now Airing Secular Commercials – Their Holy Land Amusement Park Tanking (Feb. 2020)

(Link): Scandals Galore at TBN: Sexual, Financial

(Link): Not that Story Again (Crouch Sr. on TBN Creation)

(Link): TBN Spends Time On Themselves – Not The Gospel

(Link): TBN’s New Line Up and Other Changes as of 2017

(Link): TBN Airing Special on Founder Paul Crouch Sr (2014) – Why?

(Link): TBN Programming Changes: Prophecy Teachers Out?

(Link): TBN is still doing tributes about deceased founder Paul Crouch Sr

TBN Devotes Entire Nov 19, 2013 Praise the Lord Show To Marriage – They Never Devote Entire PTL to Singles

(Link): On the April 22, 2016 TBN Show “PTL,” Christian Speaker Christine Caine Apologizes to Adult Singles For Singles Being Marginalized by the Church, for Church Idolizing Marriage

(Link): Everything is Sweet and Precious on TBN – more over-used words

(Link): Jan Crouch of TBN Died – and According to Suit, Covered Up Rape of Teen Granddaughter

TBN Christian Network – Your All-Purpose Bash TBN Thread!

I’ve noticed the few times I’ve left posts about specific complaints or observations about TBN, I’ll get visitors who leave generic “I hate TBN” type of comments, and that’s not what I’m hoping to see in the comments.

I don’t completely agree with all teachings on TBN, so I’m sympathetic, but how about not using any and every post of mine that makes a reference to TBN an excuse to just bash TBN in general?

Two posts before this one, for example, I made a post today noting that TBN keeps airing Paul Crouch Sr. telling and re-telling how he founded TBN, and how repetitive and annoying this TBN history lesson is. Instead of agreeing with that specific point, one visitor used that post to bash TBN in general terms.

I propose if you are a TBN-hater and want to rant and rave about how they push the “Wealth and Health Gospel” and how Jan Crouch’s pink hair is funny looking, and so on and so forth, that you use this particular blog post for that, instead of using each and every post I make mentioning TBN to gripe in general terms about TBN.

Believe me, I’m sympathetic to much of your disdain for TBN, but that doesn’t mean I want every single post I make about them on my blog to turn into an all- purpose ‘I sure do hate TBN, those Word of Faith heretics!’ type rant fest. If I make a post with a SPECIFIC gripe about TBN, please address that specific point, instead of telling me “they’re frauds, greedy, and Word of Faithers,” since I already know all that and agree with most of it.

John Hagee Believes in, Teaches Conditional Security (which is a false teaching)

Based on a November 29th, 2011 broadcast of a John Hagee show I watched, I take it that Hagee believes in Conditional Security, though he did not use the term “Conditional Security.”

I do not recall his exact words, but he said something to the effect that “once saved, always saved” is not true.

He quoted a few verses from Galatians and a part of Revelation to “prove” that a Christian can lose his or her salvation, or that a Christian has to continue to be good or to do good works to retain one’s salvation.

He made some remarks about how a Christian cannot expect to live any old way he wants to and expect to be saved.

CS (Conditional Security) is a false teaching, since it is a works-based salvation. Hagee, and those like him, believe that the atoning work and blood of Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation, but that it is up to one’s own effort and goodness to “remain saved.”

Here are links to pages by other people about these issues:

OSAS, The Whole Story

ETERNAL SECURITY (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

Eternal Security: How a Saved Person Can Never Be Lost Again

Security of the Believer: Once Saved Always Saved?

Why A Truly Born Again Christian CANNOT Be Lost

Soteriology: The Security of Our Salvation

The Eternal Security of the Believer:
Will God Fulfill His Promises? — Part 1

ONCE SAVED – ALWAYS SAVED? Our Topic is ETERNAL SECURITY:
Can One Be GENUINELY ‘Born Again’ Yet Finally Not Inherit Eternal Life?

Bayless Conley and Depression – Sorry, dude, but depression can’t be cured by will power & sometimes not even by faith

I’m sure Bayless Conley, a pastor who has a weekly TV show, means well. (I’ve written about him once before at this blog).

However, in today’s show, Conley was essentially making it sound as though if one wants to conquer clinical depression, one can do it by force of will, by thinking happy, sunny thoughts, and by having enough faith.

I’m not sure how much of a WoFer – Word of Faith (Wealth and Health / Prosperity Gospel) preacher this Conley guy is, if at all, but I am aware that many other WoFers have warped ideas about faith, healing, and human suffering.

One TBN guest who gets it right: Dr Billy Ingram of L.A.

(Please click the “more” link to read the entire post)

Dr. Billy Ingram, a guy I’ve never heard of before, was a guest on a TBN program this evening, and he went on an anti-prosperity rant (he’s against prosperity as taught by the con artists and greedy rats one typically sees on TBN).

If I understood correctly, Ingram is a pastor at a church in Los Angeles, but spends the rest of his time working as a photographer.

Ingram said that too many people in the church today who are preaching and listening to the prosperity message are too greedy, and he mentioned that one word frequently translated in our Bibles as “prosperity” is not always referring to financial prosperity.

Ingram made an excellent point when he said (paraphrasing),

“Why is it that in the churches where the pastors preach the prosperity gospel that the pastors and the other ‘top guys’ in the churches are the only ones driving the expensive cars? If the prosperity message they teach is true, shouldn’t more people in their churches also be driving the fancy cars?”

Taking the Lord’s Name in Vain – on ‘Christian’ TV Shows

(Please click the “more” link to read the entire post)

I cringe every time I hear Christian hosts use the name Jesus as though it’s an exclamation, because it sounds dangerously close to taking His name in vain.

“Pastor” Rod Parsley, whose show airs on TBN, is perhaps most guilty of this.

If you’ve read my previous post on Parsley, you know I don’t even think that man is a Christian.

I do try to avoid his show, but every so often, while channel surfing, I pause to watch a moment or two. It’s kind of like the proverbial train wreck you can’t help but stare at as you go by.

About anytime I do watch, even for a moment, Parsley frequently interjects the name of Jesus. That is, Jesus with an exclamation point at the end.

Greed at TBN

Click the “more” link to read the rest of this post.

Sometime within the past 4 or 5 days, I was watching an episode of “Behind the Scenes,” which is a daily TV show on network TBN.

The show was being hosted by father and son team Paul Crouch Junior and Senior.

That the people of TBN -the station owners as well as many of the “Word of Faith” pastors who have shows on TBN- are a little too interested in money is something already pretty well known.

The appeals for fund raising on TBN usually run along the idiotic, over-used line of telling people if they “sow a (monetary) seed” in TBN (or with one of its television ministries), that God will reward the giver with more money (Pat Robertson of the “700 Club” show uses the term “reciprocity,” which is just another way of saying “sowing a seed” – in other words, it’s another name for the same con job). Nothing new there.

I watched only part of this episode before feeling disgusted and having to change channels.

Here is where the appeal for funds took a change of tactic.

Cannot Stand Rod Parsley – Greedy Pastor

Rod Parsley is one of the “Prosperity Gospel” frauds on TBN, and he has his own daily television show.

I was channel surfing today and watched a little of his show “Breakthrough.”

The topic of the program was fear.

The end of the show wound up being an appeal for money.