What the Critics Get Right and Wrong Concerning the #WakeUpOlive Phenomenon – Regarding: Prayer – So Christians Really Are Deists

What the Critics Get Right and Wrong Concerning the #WakeUpOlive Phenomenon – Regarding: Prayer- So Christians Really Are Deists 

December 20, 2019

Several days ago, I believe on Friday, December 13, 2019, a little toddler girl named Olive died (Olive Alayne Heiligenthal). 

(Edit, Dec 21, 2019: I saw a report that the church will be holding a memorial service for the little girl, so it looks like at least some of them have accepted that the little girl is gone.

(Link): Hope for girl’s resurrection shifts to Bethel memorial service

(Link): Family giving up prayers to resurrect 2-year-old, ‘moving towards a memorial service’)

I am sorry for her passing. I am sure her parents and other family are in a lot of pain due to her passing. They have my condolences.

Since their little girl Olive has died, the parents and the church they attend – Bethel Church – have been leading a “Wake Up Olive” movement, and some of that is being carried over on Instagram and on Twitter (you can search for it (Link): here on Twitter).

These Bethel people are expecting God to raise Olive from the dead, because they are praying and expecting God to do so.

You can read more background and details about this situation and several news sites, including these:

(Link): In California, a Christian Megachurch Is Trying to Bring a 2-Year-Old Girl Back to Life

(Link): Christian Mega- Church Prays for Resurrection of Two Year Old Girl

I believe the critics of the movement, who have been tweeting regularly about this situation, are right to say that the parents need to accept that their little girl has passed on, and that no amount of prayer or faith is going to bring her back to life.

The little girl has been deceased for about seven days now.

The last I read, a baby sitter put the girl down for a nap, and the girl stopped breathing.

Other sources say that Olive is at a morgue now, has been there a few days, and an autopsy was already performed.

There are other aspects of this story I don’t care to address in this post – for example, some people suspect there is foul play in the death of the girl, and some people think the Go Fund Me set up for this family in light of Olive’s passing is suspicious.

The aspect of this story I want to address is the issue of Prayer and Unanswered Prayer and biblical promises.

I’ve actually addressed these subjects several times over in older blog posts of mine (such as in (Link): this post), but I am seeing them crop up again in light of this story about Olive’s passing.

Now, I am not a Pentecostal.

I am neither a Cessationist or an Anti-Cessationist.

If you’re not familiar with those terms, here is a web page by guys who consider themselves Cessationists who explain what some of these terms mean:
(Link): Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?

So far as my understanding of the Bible is concerned, I am somewhere in the middle of that topic.

I’ve written posts on that in the past such as

(Link): Extra-Biblical Knowledge – My Thougts Expanded and Clarified – And: Christian Deism

While I absolutely do not believe that little Olive is coming back to life on Earth – no matter how much her church prays and believes for that to happen…

….I am just as much in disagreement with the number of Christians I see arguing theology about this matter, especially the ones who are denigrating faith and biblical promises in the process.

I Called Off My Engagement. I Didn’t Feel God’s Peace. by L. Wilbert

I Called Off My Engagement. I Didn’t Feel God’s Peace. by L. Wilbert

I’m not sure I agree completely with this editorial, which I have linked to and excerpted further below. I think it over-spiritualizes things.

When I was engaged, I didn’t feel God’s peace of lack thereof. I had to decide for myself if the guy I was engaged to was right or not. After several years together, I prayed for guidance, because I didn’t know if I should stay or go.

I never did get any guidance from God, not even when I was praying hardest. I ultimately had to make up my own mind.

I really wish that Christians would stop offering this view that if one just trusts God, that God will direct one’s life choices (such as if to marry a certain person or not).

God has never, ever guided me – not when I was engaged, not when I was in my twenties and asking God which college major and career I should pursue. I never felt God’s peace, nor did I feel God saying, “No” to any of those things (and I didn’t feel or hear God saying, “Yes,” either).

I think this article below is just as bad as those articles by Christians who claim God “led them” to their spouse, like the lady who says God sent her a spouse when she went for a walk on the beach (see links about all that at the bottom of this post, under “related”).

Sometimes, the Spirit is going to remain totally silent – the Spirit is not going to give you his blessing or with-hold it.

(Link): I Called Off My Engagement. I Didn’t Feel God’s Peace. by L. Wilbert

Excerpts:

Looking for the right fit in a spouse is often less important than praying for the Spirit’s blessing.

Pat Robertson’s Insensitive Response to Randy with the Unanswered Prayers

Pat Robertson’s Insensitive Response to Randy with the Unanswered Prayers

Someone named Randy sent Pat Robertson a question to Robertson’s 700 Club television show and it was featured in today’s show (Feb 20, 2019). (View questions here)

You can view the particular question under discussion in this post here (also available at the 50 minute mark (Link: on You Tube here):

(Link): Your Questions, Honest Answers: – February 20, 2019

I BELIEVED IN THE POWER OF PRAYER, BUT IT DOESN’T SEEM LIKE GOD LISTENS TO ME. SHOULD I JUST GIVE UP ASKING?

Randy told Pat that he’s been praying over and over for a financial blessing from God, and for his family member to be healed of a physical health problem.

Pat essentially responds that Randy is not getting his prayers answered because he’s being selfish praying for himself.

That response is wrong because the Bible actually instructs believers to pray for their own needs – not just the needs of other people – and Pat did not address the fact that Randy was not praying only for himself but also for the healing of a sick family member.

Pat Robertson’s Too-Vague Response About Unanswered Prayer and Non-Helpful Advice About Anxiety

Pat Robertson’s Too-Vague Response About Unanswered Prayer and Non-Helpful Advice About Anxiety

The episode in question:
(Link): The 700 Club – January 8, 2019

(There is a video of the program embedded on that page hosted on CBN’s / 700 Club’s site. Also, thanks to commentator Stevo below, check (Link): this page on 700 Club’s site for the video)

The portions of that video I am addressing come during the part of the show where the lady co-host reads viewer questions to Pat Robertson, and Robertson replies to them.

I do not remember at what point the question segment airs, whether it’s at the 30 minute mark or later. Unfortunately, they’ve not uploaded the same episode to their You Tube channel (not yet, perhaps they will tomorrow).

I have to rely on memory here because I’ve not re-watched the episode.

Questions were posed to Robertson about unanswered prayer and about anxiety.

And I don’t believe that Robertson did an adequate job of replying to any of the questions.

Cathy The Single Woman Asks Pat Robertson Why God Has Not Replied to Her Prayers for Years to Send Her a Spouse

Cathy The Single Woman Asks Pat Robertson Why God Has Not Replied to Her Prayers for Years to Send Her a Spouse

On the December 10, 2018 episode of Christian program “The 700 Club,” (which you can view (Link): on You Tube here, the letter comes at 45.27 mark in the video) some single lady wrote to Pat Robertson (adult singles, (Link): stop writing Pat Robertson with your relationship questions, you will seldom get an empathetic reply!), and she said,

[Dear Pat],
I have been asking God for a godly husband for years, but it hasn’t happened yet.  So does that mean God doesn’t want me to be married?
[Signed,]
Cathy

Pat Robertson basically tells Cathy that he doesn’t know what to say, but he tacks on his standard “God puts the lonely in families” reply, which I’ve discussed before on this blog: the truth is that no, despite that Bible verse about God putting the lonely in families, that is not true.

What Advent Waiting Means for Singles by B. DeWitt

What Advent Waiting Means for Singles by B. DeWitt

Article on Christianity Today (I have some thoughts below these excerpts):

(Link): What Advent Waiting Means for Singles by B. DeWitt

Excerpts:

Scripture is filled with stories of people who waited. Hannah waited for an unspecified number of years before having her son Samuel.

The Israelites waited 70 years in exile before being allowed to return to their homeland. The Jewish people waited hundreds of years for the promised Messiah.

…Some waiting, however, is indefinite.

In my own life, indefinite waiting has come in the form of singleness.

For years I’ve prayed to meet a godly man, not only because I desire the kind of love and companionship that marriage brings, but also because I’ve seen how good marriages can make each spouse better able to love, serve, and glorify God.

Never Married Adult Man Named Stephen Asks Christian Host Why God Has Not Answered His 3-Decades Long Prayers to Send Him A Wife

Never-Married Adult Man Named Stephen Asks Christian Host Why God Has Not Answered His 3-Decades Long Prayers To Send Him A Wife

On the November 2, 2018 episode of “The 700 Club,” some guy named Stephen wrote in with a question about singleness and marriage, and host Gordon Robertson answered it.

You can find the question on You Tube (Link) here, and that part of the show is in the last 5 – 10 minutes of the show. You can also watch that same episode on (Link): The 700 Club web site.

I will discuss the letter from Stephen more below.

First, I wanted to say…
Within the past 2 – 3 weeks, 700 Club has been running more than their usual number of questions from viewers about singleness and asking why hasn’t God sent them a spouse, such as this one:

(Link): James the 40 Something Year Old Single Guy Asks Why Don’t Churches Help Single Adults Get Married

I have watched this 700 Club show daily since around 2005, and sporadically prior to that, for years (my mother used to watch this show when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I’ve seen plenty of it).

Well, in most episodes, 700 Club rarely, rarely addresses adult singleness. They mostly feature married couples who are having affairs or financial problems.

They rarely address singleness, unless they have a 30- or 40 -something female co-host who is single.

60 Year Old, Never- Married Woman Asks Christian TV Host Pat Robertson If Some Are Just Not Meant to Marry

60 Year Old, Never- Married Woman Asks Christian TV Host Pat Robertson If Some Are Just Not Meant to Marry

Below, in this post, is a video on You Tube, via ‘700 Club,’ uploaded on October 25, 2018, in which a 60 year old woman says she “never found a godly man to marry” and her church never has any men her age there.

She asks Robertson if some people are just never meant to marry.

As I’ve been saying on this blog for ages now, you cannot count on God, prayer, churches or Christians to fix you up with a spouse, because they won’t (churches will even shame and scold you for asking).

The woman says she’s never found a “godly” man to marry – I think that is Christian code-speak for “I haven’t found a Christian man to marry.” This woman has probably been brain-washed into accepting (Link): the “Equally Yoked” teaching.

Single ladies, if you are Christian and want marriage, the numbers are stacked against you, as I’ve explained in numerous posts before. You need to get away from this “I must marry a  Christian and only a Christian” belief, or you will end up in your 40s, never married like me, or like this 60 year old woman.

It’s better to find a kind-hearted, loving Non-Christian man to marry than end up at 60 never having been married because you could not find a compatible Christian man – there are no single Christian men in churches for you to meet and marry who are over age 30 and under age 80. They don’t attend church.

The Consider The Lily Blogger, 220 Lily, Thinks You Should Believe in God For Anything, But This Was Sure Not Her Message to Me in 2016

The Consider The Lily Blogger, 220 Lily, Thinks You Should Believe in God For Anything, But This Was Sure Not Her Message to Me in 2016

About two years ago a person calling himself or herself (I will assume this is a woman) –  “220lily” – (who has her own blog (Link): here – January 2019 update: as of this date, Word Press says that the 220Lily blog is no longer available; I wonder why she deleted her blog?) – she had the audacity to scold and lecture me in the comment section of my own blog, under one of my (Link): One Stop Threads.

I just checked out Lily’s (Link): Twitter page (edit January 2019: she has also deleted that particular Twitter account, though I don’t know when), and on it, she says of herself:

“White. Female. Pentecostal. Philosopher. Preacher. Poet. Travel tweets: English churches, Bible sites. Tennessee, USA”

I think after exchanging several posts with her, I blocked her. (I may tweet a link to this blog post to her on Twitter and block here there, too, as I’m not interested in having an on-going debate with her, but I think she should be made aware of this blog post.)

220Lily became increasingly judgmental as our exchange continued – and that is (Link): not what my blog is about.

Yes, please click that link to visit that page (here it is again), and please scroll down to the comments section to see the conversation that 220Lily and myself had. (Link to the first post from 220Lily to me is located (Link): here.)

I just now noticed the passive-aggressive, catty, bitchy barb that 220 Lily left in her initial post telling me that she allows all comments on her blog, even those that disagree with her blog – as though this makes her superior to me or my blog in some fashion.

Let me tell you, I may not allow argumentative comments on my blog (which I state up front, right at the top of the blog’s main page, hello, so it is not a surprise), but I don’t automatically assume that I’m better person or a better blogger than someone else who blogs differently from me or who has differing blog rules from mine. Good lord, the arrogance.

Today, in March 2018, I once more looked at Lily’s posts on my blog because I was editing one of those ‘one stop’ threads. I skimmed down and saw her comments again.

I clicked on her screen name in one of the comments she left on my blog to see if she has a blog, and if so, what she’s been writing lately. She does in fact have her own blog, and her last post to her blog was published about a week ago.

As I compose this blog post today, this is the most recent post on her blog, “Consider the Lilies”-

(Link): Do You Believe?  (that link is to her blog post on her original blog; it is no longer available –
– she has re-posted it to a new blog location
(Link): here – “Do You Believe?”)

(Link): Twitter Link about Blog Post

Here are a few excerpts from that blog post by 220Lily:

Excerpts by the Consider the Lily Blogger:

I shared this story here last week (see “Face to Face”), but I’ll share it again because I think more people need to hear it.

Last Sunday morning at church, I prayed to see God’s power.

Tuesday night, he answered my prayer.

How? When I went to bed, my cell phone had 6% battery power left. It had been in the red zone (0-15%) for hours, but I wanted the battery to drain completely so I could recharge it. Minutes later I checked my phone and the battery level was 16%, out of the red zone.

What happened? God miraculously powered my phone, without electricity! Is this event technologically possible? No. Old batteries do funny things, but they can’t charge without electricity. …

What does this experience tell me? God can do anything instantly, without human help.

Yes, he gives people the knowledge to design phones and perform surgery.

Sometimes God chooses to work through human instruments. But they’re not necessary.

Man isn’t indispensable because God isn’t limited by human power. He can make pigs fly if he wants to. And it’s easy for him. There’s no struggle! The question is, do we believe?
//// end excerpt

What hypocrisy, considering this person’s condescending lecture to me two years prior on my own blog (again, you can view Lily’s condescending and victim blaming comments to me under a blog post here).

Woman on 700 Club Claims God Told Her To Marry Bearded Guy

Woman on 700 Club Claims God Told Her To Marry Bearded Guy

I pretty much detest this Christian view that, “God sent me a spouse!”

And wouldn’t you know that just a few days ago on “700 Club” there was a story on there on (Link): their Valentine’s Day (February 14, 2018) episode (at least I’m fairly sure it aired on Valentine’s Day, though I could be wrong on that) where this woman said she broke up with this dude, and she said she “felt the LORD” telling her to do so, that he “had something better” for her.

What’s worse than seeing these stories, or having a Christian show broadcast such stories, is for them to do so on Valentine’s Day, which may be a difficult day for some singles to get through.

Joanne The Widow Lady Wants to Know Why God Didn’t Answer Her Prayer to Keep her Husband With Her

Joanne The Widow Lady Wants to Know Why God Didn’t Answer Her Prayer to Keep her Husband With Her

Several months ago, the viewer question segment of the 700 Club’s show was called “Bring It On,” but for whatever the reason, they changed the name of the segment to “Your Questions, Honest Answers.”

On today’s (January 3, 2018) program, a woman named Joanne wrote Pat Robertson with this question (video below). I will type up a transcript of her letter (which was read aloud by the lady co-host) and then I will opine about the letter below the transcript:

Viewer Question Transcript:

My husband and I were happily married for 37 years. Every single night I prayed to God thanking him for my husband and the life we had together.

I asked God to never take him from me, for I had hoped that we would grow old together.

Then one day out of nowhere, my husband was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. I was devastated and I felt like my sincere prayer must not have meant anything to God.

The Rhetoric of Singleness Blog – Links, Comments, Thoughts

The Rhetoric of Singleness Blog

Warning: I discovered through further reading that the author of the blog is a complementarian. I disagree with complementarianism; more on that below.

Had I known from the start she is a complementarian, I may not have started composing this post. I am leery of pointing anyone to a complementarian resource, but here we are.

---

As of today, I see only a small number of posts on the The Rhetoric of Singleness blog, dating from April 2017, and this blog appears to be from a Christian perspective – but then, her blog does not display a list or pull down menu of all her posts.

Even though the blog looks to be on hiatus, I’ll link to it on the off chance the blogger resumes writing again.

The person behind this blog says she’s single, in her 30s, and has yet to marry but would like to.

(Link): The Rhetoric of Singleness Blog – main page

Some of the only posts I am seeing on this blog include:

(Link): Pursuing Marriage

In that “Pursuing Marriage” post, she says she is a believer in gender complementarianism.

For example, here’s part of what she writes:

So, what options does that leave me, a woman with a complementary view of gender roles, of pursuing marriage? I know for some women who see no options left to them there is a strong temptation to bitterness, resentment, and to denigrate our single brothers who are called by God to the leadership role in the pursuit of marriage.

// end excerpt

Oh no. I (Link): used to be a complementarian myself but ditched it by my mid 30s.

I heard all the same stuff from conservative Christians growing up, as this other blogger likely did, such as, how (Link): men are supposed to be the heads in marriages, God supposedly created women pretty much to exist (Link): only to wait on men, and so on.

(And I remained a conservative, even after I realized that complementarianism is false and actually quite sexist – it doesn’t just teach that men and women “complement” one another but that there should be a male hierarchy, of men ruling over women.

Contrary to what complementarians would have you believe, abandoning gender complementarianism will not turn you into a left wing, abortion-supporting, man-hating feminist. I am still right wing, even after leaving complementarianism.)

I am no longer a complementarian, but can pin point complementarianism, among a few other things, as being (Link): one reason as to why I am in my 40s and never got married.

Those “God Brought Me My Spouse” Stories – Woman Says God Brought Her A Spouse on the Beach

Those “God Brought Me My Spouse” Stories – Woman Says God Brought Her A Spouse on the Beach

I’m really not supportive of these types of stories, the type that you see below.

When I was a teen and in my 20s, I would read Christian books and magazine articles. Every so often, I’d see an author claim that God answered her prayers by sending her a Christian spouse.

Now that I’m in my 40s and still not married – in spite of having faith and praying since youth that God would send me a great guy – I think these stories are fanciful and that they are aberrations.

I’m leaning more towards the opinion now that if you want to get married, it’s up to you to make it happen – by going to bars, asking friends to fix you up, going on dating sites – rather than expecting God to make it happen.

So, I find stories like the ones below misleading.

(Link):  Chance meeting on beach leads to marriage with godly man

By Rebecca Hagelin – – Sunday, July 30, 2017

Thirty-four years ago this month, I was fresh out of college and earnestly seeking God’s will in my life. My heart was hungry for a godly man of outstanding character.

And though I had decided that compromise in this most critical of relationships was not an option, I was beginning to doubt whether a man of that quality could possibly exist, or if I would ever find him.

Little did I know that God already had set his answer to my prayers into motion.

Does Jesus Alone Really Fill That Empty Space? And: When God Acts Like An Atheist

Does Jesus Alone Really Fill That Empty Space? And: When God Acts Like An Atheist

I was wondering if anyone else reading this, who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior (became a Christian), ever experiences a feeling that something is missing in you or your life, or if you ever feel as though there’s a hole in your heart, or if you ever feel an emptiness?

I do at times, and I don’t understand why, since I grew up hearing that everyone has this hole in their heart, and only Jesus can fill it. And, further, if you believe in Jesus, Christians say, that emptiness will go away. What if it does not? Or, what if it returns?

I’ve done the whole Jesus thing. I was a devout Christian for years and years, but at times I still feel as though something is missing.

Viewer Asks Christian Hosts Why They Seldom Pray for Non-Physical Health Problems

I did a post not too long ago wondering the same thing this viewer did (located here), the one who wrote to a Christian TV asking why the hosts, when they pray for the audience, hardly ever pray for people to be healed of broken hearts, anxiety, or depression?

Why is it, that on this Christian show, almost every time they pray for viewers, the prayers are almost always about physical sickness, and occasionally, financial matters?

Pat Robertson’s Unrealistic, Unhelpful Advice to the Unemployed

Pat Robertson’s Unrealistic, Unhelpful Advice to the Unemployed

Pat Robertson is the main host of a Christian television program called “The 700 Club.” This program comes on Monday through Friday. He takes viewer questions at the end of many of the episodes.

I usually give out links to the episodes I discuss, but I didn’t plan on being online tonight, it’s growing late, I’m getting sleeping, and frankly, I’m too sleepy and lazy to google for the link.

On an episode of 700 Club that aired this week – the week of May 22, 2017, or possibly the last part of last week (like around May 18 or 19, 2017), Robertson took a question from some guy who was out of work.

It seems about twice per year, every year, Pat Robertson’s show receives a question from a lady or a man who says they are out of work, they have sent out hundreds of resumes, yet they are not getting employed, and nobody is even calling them in for job interviews.

They sometimes add that they pray constantly and ask God to send them a job, but so far, their prayers seem to be going un-heard, and they want to know why God isn’t helping them.

Christian Viewer Expresses Disappointment in God, Wants To Know Why, In Spite of Years of Service, God is Not Helping Him

Christian Viewer Expresses Disappointment in God, Wants To Know Why, In Spite of Years of Service, God is Not Helping Him

I almost forgot to blog about this. I really related to this guy’s letter (which I’ve included much farther below, both in text and video format – I’ve embedded the video that contains the letter at the bottom).

This guy wrote this question to the hosts of The 700 Club – Gordon Robertson was the host.

I wasn’t too impressed by Gordon’s response – I felt his reply was just “meh” or “so-so.” It was not an awful response, but I didn’t feel it was great and really answered the guy’s concern.

My interest, though, is not in Gordon’s reply, but in the guy’s question (or maybe it was a lady). This letter resonates with me so much. Sometimes I don’t know if God exists or not, and on some days, I skip praying, because some of the same 3 or 4 things I’ve been praying for over a period of ten or more years now have not been answered.

Either there is no God to hear my prayers, or he doesn’t keep the promises he makes in the Bible about meeting our needs and so on.

When All We Hear from God is Silence by Diane Markins

When All We Hear from God is Silence by Diane Markins

I wanted to link to a page about a book by a woman whose name I believe is Kellie Lane, and her book title is “When God is Silent,” but I couldn’t find anything on her or her book – she was interviewed on “The 700 Club” this past week.

(Edit: I did find (Link): this page about her. She was in three abusive marriages, divorced all three, and prayed to God to send her a new spouse, which she later got.)

I did find this:

(Link): When All We Hear from God is Silence by D Markins

Excerpts:

 It happens to every single person alive, even to those whom theretofore hadn’t prayed – a time of desperation or longing when we cry out to God, “Fix this. Change this. Heal this.” And we hear nothing in response.

What does it mean when God is silent in the face of our anguished pleas? Does it mean He doesn’t care, or worse, He doesn’t even exist?

I’ve experienced the quiet echoes of prayers unanswered. When my mother lay in her hospital bed unconscious, doctors explained that her brain was dead and she’d never wake up. I begged God to prove them wrong. She never again responded to my voice or looked into my eyes and soon slipped away from this world permanently while God was silent.

How to Deal with Unanswered Prayers via Pastor Bil Cornelius

How to Deal with Unanswered Prayers via Pastor Bil Cornelius 

According to the time stamp on You Tube, this sermon was uploaded in November 2016, but I don’t recall watching it then. I did see an airing of this episode on TBN this month, just the other day (Feb. 2017).

I was going in and out of the room as this sermon aired, so I missed a few parts of it. From what I heard, however, overall, it was a decent sermon. I didn’t hear too much victim-blaming in it.

Usually, when Christians address the topic of unanswered prayer, they get into victim-blaming; they will assume the reason God has not answered your prayer is you are at fault in some way. I don’t recall hearing too much of that in this sermon.

I will say that one aspect of this sermon that gives me some pause is when the pastor says that God’s answer may be “yes” to your prayer, but not “right now” because God is supposedly waiting for you to mature before he grants you whatever you are praying about.

Singleness: My Only Companion by E. Uwan

Singleness: My Only Companion by E. Uwan

This was originally sent to me by a Twitter friend of mine, ymmarta. So thank you to ymmarta to sending this link my way.

The following is written by a woman who has never been married, engaged, or had a boyfriend.

(Link): Singleness: My Only Companion by E. Uwan

Some excerpts:

I’ve never been in a serious relationship despite my desire to one day marry. God is teaching me to hold that desire loosely.

 … This is my story, this is my song: I am a 30-something single woman and I have never been in a dating relationship. I’ve never had a boyfriend. I’ve never brought anyone home to meet my family. I’ve never been pursued or even sought after.