(Hetero-) Sex outside Marriage debate – Radio Debate from 2010

(Hetero-) Sex outside Marriage debate – Radio Debate from 2010
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Here is an online audio debate between a Christian and a self-described atheist feminist, who debate about fornication (sex outside of marriage); hosted on the British Christian show “Unbelievable”:

(Link): (Hetero-) Sex outside Marriage debate – Radio Debate from 2010

I am in the midst of the show myself and have no thoughts about it at this time. If I have anything to say about it, I shall edit this post to add my comments below this paragraph and above the radio show description.

For now, the only comment I have to make is that I am not comfortable with Christians who stress that sex is for pro-creation, as the one lady did on this radio show. There are Christian married couples who have health problems and are incapable of getting pregnant, would you then claim they should refrain from sex altogether?

I don’t think sex is only about baby-making.

Update: After having listened to the entire program, I don’t have much to say about it. The only thing that stood out to me was when the atheist freethinker lady scoffed at the idea of “celibates” (her word) giving anyone advice about sex, and was tying this into context about religious leaders. (She seemed specifically to be calling out the Pope and Roman Catholic priests.)

As I have noted before in other posts, celibacy is not only a “Roman Catholic” thing. I was brought up a Baptist, am over age 40, and am a celibate. Let me repeat that: I am celibate but am not a Roman Catholic.

It’s hypocritical that someone who fancies herself a champion of “free thinking” and standing up for the oppressed, as she does, so easily and condescendingly dismisses celibates, and basically says we celibates are not entitled to give any one opinions about matters pertaining to sex.

My message to the Atheist lady on the radio show:
Atheist lady, I don’t have to have sexual intercourse myself to be able to discuss the topic or hold a view on it – and, by the way, I am still a sexual being. Most celibates are not devoid of sexual impulse, nor are we asexual. It’s incorrect, condescending, and rude to feel that celibates have no place at the table in discussing sexual mores and topics. (And like it or not, this celibate does indeed have opinions on these issues.)

Radio Show Description of the Debate’s contents (from their web page):

    Evangelical Christians hold that sexual relations outside of marriage are against Biblical mandate and have negative moral and social consequences.

    In modern society, as marriage becomes less common and most people are sexually active from their teens, is this belief outmoded and irrelevant?

    Sue Meyer describes herself as an “Atheist freethinking feminist”. She claims that Christian marriage has historically been used as a way of subjugating women. She says that the modern climate where people are at liberty to have sex with who they want, when they want is a welcome change.

    Faith Forster is one of the founders of the Ichthus Christian Fellowship network of churches in the UK. She says that the Biblical principle of keeping sex within the marriage bond is given for the good of both individuals and society.

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Ever Notice That Christians Don’t Care About or Value Singleness, Unless Jesus Christ’s Singleness and Celibacy is Doubted or Called Into Question by Scholars?

Ever Notice That Christians Don’t Care About or Value Singleness, Unless Jesus Christ’s Singleness and Celibacy is Doubted or Called Into Question by Scholars?
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Have you ever noticed how many conservative Christians ignore the unmarried, or treat them like trash? Because they either don’t stop to even think about single people or singleness at all, or they seem to regard singleness as a flawed state….however

Whenever a Non-Christian author or liberal scholar speculates that perhaps Jesus was married with children, O the scandal! The pearl- clutching! The fainting that goes on! Someone break out the smelling salts!

When Non Christian author Dan Brown released “The DaVinci Code” book, and it was made into a movie starring Tom Hanks, American Christians went into an uproar: how dare anyone suggest Jesus was not unmarried, had kids, and was not celibate!

I couldn’t help think of all that when I saw this article this morning:

(Link): Apologetics: Why the Singleness of Jesus Makes the Best Sense of the Historical Evidence by T P Jones

You see, most Christians do not respect singleness and they generally treat it like the plague, or else don’t give it a second thought, but, like good hypocrites they are, singlehood becomes of preeminent importance to them concerning Jesus of Nazareth specifically, when His celibacy or marital state is called into question.

Here are a few excerpts from the article “Apologetics: Why the Singleness of Jesus Makes the Best Sense of the Historical Evidence” by Jones:

:: What Early Christians Had to Say About the Singleness of Jesus ::

Dr. King has presented the so-called “Gospel of Jesus’s Wife” as evidence that arguments over the singleness of Jesus were a pressing issue among second-century Christians. The fragment provides “direct evidence,” according to King, “that claims about Jesus’s marital status first arose over a century after the death of Jesus in the context of intra-Christian controversies over sexuality, marriage, and discipleship.”

In other words, second-century Christians were arguing about issues related to sex and marriage. In the midst of these arguments, some Christians claimed Jesus was married while others said he wasn’t.

The second- and third-century sources do not, however, support this supposition. In the first place, while certainly possible, it’s far from certain whether the fourth-century fragment known as The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife was translated from any second-century text. More likely than not, this fragment is a modern forgery.

Even if we assume for a moment that the fragment is authentic, Coptic texts of this sort did not emerge in the context of “intra-Christian controversies” but from breakaway Gnostic sects, groups that had already rejected the witness of the apostolic eyewitnesses. The primary concern of the Gnostics would not have been whether Jesus was actually married but how they might portray Jesus in a way that would illustrate their own myths and rituals.

Yet what of the earliest Christian mentions of Jesus and marriage? Do they suggest intense “intra-Christian controversies” that resulted in competing “claims about Jesus’s marital status”?

Not really.

In fact, in the first Christian references to Jesus’s marital status, I find no hint of competing claims about whether Jesus was married or single.

Continue reading “Ever Notice That Christians Don’t Care About or Value Singleness, Unless Jesus Christ’s Singleness and Celibacy is Doubted or Called Into Question by Scholars?”

Refreshing: Christian Researcher Disputes that Youths Are Leaving Churches in Droves, Disagrees that Churches Should Be Family Focused

Refreshing: Christian Researcher Disputes that Youths Are Leaving Churches in Droves, Disagrees that Churches Should Be Family Focused
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Intersting page. It says that all the hand-wringing over youth dropping out of church and attempts to re-tool churches into “family ministry” focus is ill-founded.

(Link): Family Ministry: Gut Feelings, the Gospel, and the Big Lie About Nine-Out-of-Ten by Timothy Paul Jones

Excerpts:

    Over the past couple of years, I’ve had conversations of this sort with hundreds of church leaders. The denominations have differed, the locations have spanned the globe, and the churches themselves have ranged from minute rural chapels to suburban mega-churches. Yet the script inevitably runs something like this: Eighty percent, maybe even ninety percent, of students are dropping out of church after high school! Can you help us launch a family ministry program to fix this problem?

    ….This shocking dropout statistic represents a starting point for all sorts of demands for modifications in ministry practices—including the launch of family ministry programs. The logic throughout most of these references runs something like this: The standard for youth ministry effectiveness is retention of students beyond high school, and an overwhelming percentage of students are dropping out after high school. Therefore, current strategies for youth and children’s ministries are clearly not successful. If only churches could come up with more effective ministry practices, they could fix the dropout rate and become more effective.

    …. As I have consulted with these congregations, here’s what I have found in many churches: Congregational leaders see family ministry as a quick counterbalance for dropout numbers that they’ve heard at a conference. They perceive partnering with parents as a fix for the problem of a faith that can’t seem to last past the freshman year of college.

    …Perhaps you’ve read about the crisis too. Maybe you heard a speaker mention the dropout statistic at a recent conference. Perhaps that’s even why you are reading this post: You’re convinced that better partnerships between your ministry and the parents might provide the perfect solution to dismal retention rates. If so, I want to make a suggestion that may seem a bit radical at first: The dropout rate is not a sufficient reason to reorient your ministry practices.

    Allow me to unpack why I’m making such a claim: First, it’s uncertain whether the rate of attrition that looms so large in our ecclesial anxiety closet even exists. And furthermore, even if a high dropout rate does exist, attrition rates represent an inadequate means for assessing ministry failure or success. To understand what I’m suggesting, let’s first take a closer look at the numbers behind the infamous evangelical dropout statistic.

    :: Gut Feelings Aren’t Good Statistics ::

    In the first place, when did conference speakers first begin to claim that the vast majority of youth were exiting the church before their sophomore year of college? And was their research reliable?

    The first references to the dropout statistic come from the late 1990s. That’s when a well-meaning speaker reported a post-youth group attrition rate of 90 percent.

    And how did he obtain this number?

    The speaker’s information was based on the “gut feelings” that he gathered and averaged from a roomful of youth ministers.

    Now, there’s nothing wrong with asking a few people how they feel about an issue. Yet the communal hunch of a single group rarely results in a reliable statistic. In this case, an informal averaging of personal recollections resulted in a wildly overstated percentage that received tremendous publicity. As a result, over the past couple of decades, many youth ministries have leaped from one bandwagon to another, driven by the unsubstantiated estimates of a few youth pastors. Another popular percentage—88 percent—has been traced back to the estimates of two youth ministry experts, based on their own experiences.

    Continue reading “Refreshing: Christian Researcher Disputes that Youths Are Leaving Churches in Droves, Disagrees that Churches Should Be Family Focused”

Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex – supposedly – Re Celibacy

Douglas Wilson and Christian Response FAIL to Sex / Sexual Sin – No Body Can Resist Sex (Part 2)

Preface.

If anyone is far more qualified than Douglas Wilson to speak of adult celibacy, and what it takes to be and live celibate, it’s me – someone who is, you know, an actual lifelong adult celibate.

Christians harbor many unbiblical, false, and mythical views about adult celibacy, and Wilson is no exception. I don’t have to assume anything about celibacy, since I am living it first hand.
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This post has been updated below regarding Wilson’s comments about Celibacy vis a vis the Steven Sitler situation (SEPTEMBER 2015) 
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At the other end of the spectrum are nominal Christian bloggers, authors, or preachers such as Douglas Wilson, who write false nonsense such as:

(Link): Sex and Smithereens (posted in March 2013)

Pertinent excerpts (emphasis added by me):

  • by Douglas Wilson
  • The men who drafted the Westminster Confession believed, as do I, that a lifetime of celibacy for a man not specially gifted by God for that calling is an impossibility.
  • In short, a man may not lawfully vow to do something forbidden by the law of God. Neither may he bind himself with a vow to a sin of omission — as when men dedicated as Corban the resources needed to take care of parents (Mark 7:11).
  • To vow celibacy outside the will of God is to wrong a future spouse. And last, he may not vow beyond his abilities to fulfill. It is a superstititous snare for a man to believe he can get along without a woman, absent an unusual gift from God.

As I was saying in my previous post in regards to recent comments by another Christian personality regarding a similar topic as Wilson’s:

There [is usually an underlying] vibe in [Christian response to sexual topics – if not an out right declaration on occasion] that all humans are going to slip and literally sin sexually (i.e., actually engage in physical acts, not just engage in sexual fantasy). However, this is simply not true.

There are some [Protestant] Christians who remain virgins past their 20s [and it is not because they have a “special gift or calling” in this area; that itself is superstitious hog wash].

It is a very damaging assumption and fallacy to keep suggesting, as evangelicals, Neo Calvinists, Baptists, and fundamentalists do, that nobody can resist sexual desires for years or forever.

People can in fact resist giving in to sexual desires and acting upon them- but they choose not to.

I am a Baptist woman who is a virgin at age 40+, and I did not take a ‘vow of celibacy.’

Nor did God gift me with celibacy.

–ADDRESSING WILSON’S FIRST ERROR / MISCONCEPTION (COMMON AMONG OTHER CHRISTIANS)–

—1. [This is the Correct view, Wilson adheres to the opposite of this]:

GOD DOES NOT GRANT CHRISTIANS WITH A ‘GIFT (OR CALLING) OF CELIBACY,’ OR WITH SUPER POWERS THAT MAGICALLY ERASE SEXUAL DESIRE—

God did not grant me any “special gifts” or magical powers to remain chaste, nor did God remove my desire for marriage or sexual urges. I still desire marriage and to have sex.

–ADDRESSING WILSON’S SECOND ERROR / MISCONCEPTION —

–2. CELIBACY IS NOT FOR ROMAN CATHOLICS ONLY, BUT DEMANDED BY THE BIBLE OF ALL UNMARRIED CHRISTIANS INCLUDING PROTESTANTS–

Protestants and Baptists who do not marry are called to remain celibate – this teaching that celibacy is only for Roman Catholics, or an institution peculiar to them as Wilson portrays, is false.

The Scriptures call all unmarried people to celibacy, for however long they remain unmarried.

It is also false to assume that people remain unmarried due to “God’s Will” (or from deliberate choice of theirs.)

There is an epidemic among Christian women today of unwanted, protracted singlehood.

These are women, such as myself, who want marriage, but who are remaining single in to their 30s and 40s because there are not enough eligible, unmarried Christian men to go round, and many of these ladies took the “do not be yoked to an unbeliever” teachings seriously.

–ADDRESSING WILSON’S THIRD ERROR / MISCONCEPTION —

–3. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE FOR YOU DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN IT IS TRUE FOR OTHER PEOPLE–

I see similar attitudes from the likes of preacher Mark Driscoll, and others, that I do in Doug Wilson, which is:

Because they themselves are horny horn dogs who feel that they cannot live without sex for three days in a row (or even for five seconds), they assume this must mean that all other Christians are equally weak in the area of sex and cannot remain abstinent for more than a few days or months.

This is wrong. There are plenty of Christians past the age of 40 who are still virgins.

Just because you cannot fathom or picture yourself abstaining from sex over your lifetime, does not mean it is impossible for other people.

I also find it interesting, and a little sexist, that Wilson’s page focuses on the male gender (Roman Catholics have female nuns who abstain from sex, you know), as if to say males cannot live without sex – as if to assume or imply women do not have libidos.

That women supposedly have zero interest in sex or hate sex, is another falsehood among conservative Christians, particularly the males. Christian women- and secular ones- can get just as randy and horny as men do.

But I suspect that Wilson, who is an extreme gender complementarian, like many in Christianity, has a hard time thinking of women as truly wanting sex, or having an interest in sex.

Sex is considered “man’s territory,” while women are thought to be interested only in house cleaning, being protected, sewing, and baking cookies. -Men who think that way are incredibly naive.

But this notion that no human can live without sex for more than five days/ months/ ten or thirty years / a life time, that abstaining for years is an impossibility, as Wilson assumes, is one of the very, precise reasons Christians are having sex outside of marriage these days: there is no expectation that they can indeed control their sexual lusts and desires.

While it is true that most humans experience sexual urges, it is a false hood that they have to be acted upon or that they cannot be resisted.

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives self-control to each believer.

But the Doug Wilsons, Pat Roberstons, Mark Driscolls, and other Christians of the world want to keep spreading the false teaching that a person cannot control him- or her- self sexually, and that the Holy Spirit is incompetent in this area.

–ADDRESSING WHAT I ASSUME WILSON BELIEVES ABOUT MARRIED COUPLES —

—4. “MARRIAGE ENABLES CHRISTIANS TO RESIST SEXUAL SIN” – CORRECTION: OH NO IT DOES NOT! —

If Wilson is operating under the assumption that marriage keeps a person from sexual sin, he’s very wrong on that score as well. Married Christian couples commit sexual sins OFTEN.

Married Christian couples have dirty magazine addiction, dirty web site addictions, dirty movie addictions, and married Christians, even preachers, are having extra- marital affairs and are also looking at X-rated material online.

Here are a few links about married Christian problems with sexual sin:

Excerpt from “Pastor Comes Clean About Porn Addiction”

  • Pastor Jones knows he is not the only person in church leadership that deals with a porn addiction. The statistics are startling.
  • Fifty percent of Christian men and 20 percent of Christian women admit that they are addicted to pornography (Christiannet.com June 07).
  • Fifty-one percent of pastors say cyber porn is a possible temptation; 37 percent say it is a current struggle (Christianity Today Leadership Survey, December 2001).
  • Of Promise Keepers attendees, one of the largest Christian men’s conferences in the U.S., 53 percent admitted to viewing pornography regularly (Internet Filter Review, 2006).
  • Forty million adults in the U.S. regularly visit porn sites on the internet (Internet Filter Review). Forty-seven percent of families say pornography is a problem in their home (Focus on the Family Poll, October 2003).

—September 2015 Update—

Doug Wilson is, once more, (in context of the Steve Sitler uproar), insisting that God “gifts” certain people with celibacy, and he seems to maintain that celibacy that lasts for more than a month or ten years is an impossibility for any mere mortal to achieve.

Steve Sitler, by the way, is a serial pedophile, and Wilson oversaw his wedding ceremony (more about that (Link): here).

Wilson thinks it is impossible for anyone, unless they are “gifted” with celibacy, to remain sexually inactive. He is totally incorrect and informed.

I am over 40, still a virgin, a heterosexual, and I still have a healthy, normal sex drive: God did not gift with me celibacy. God did not decrease my sex drive or remove it altogether.

Celibacy over a period of months or decades is entirely possible if a person is devoted to obeying God and God’s word, and if one practices self-control.

Quoting Wilson via Love, Joy, and Feminism‘s blog, (Link): Doug Wilson Explains Why He Oversaw Wedding of Serial Child Molester by Libby Anne:

  • [excerpts here by Douglas Wilson]
  • Now because he [a pedophile] has been welcomed into your fellowship, as he ought to have been, he meets a Christian woman whom he would like to marry, and she would like to marry him. He manifestly does not have the gift of celibacy. Do you bless it? Do you okay it, but make him get married by the justice of the peace? Or do you forbid it?
  • …Then there is another thing. If you forbid marriage to someone who is not gifted with celibacy, under pain of excommunication if he marries, then you have painted yourself into quite a medieval corner.
  • If you forbid it, one reason might be because you think he should live as a celibate because he did things that would have resulted in his execution under Moses.
  • …But if we are to use equal weights and measures, there are other offenses like that in your church also. Must adulterers live in perpetual celibacy? Homosexuals?

There are in fact some Christians of homosexual orientation who are living celibate lives; I have blogged about them before on this blog.

And yes, I think that a serial pedophile and one who finds his own infant son sexually stimulating and enticing, such as Sitler does, should remain a celibate so long as he should live.

I myself am a hetero woman, attracted to men, was engaged to a man for several years before breaking off that relationship, get very randy at times, yet I have controlled my libido well past the age of 40 – if I can do so, and I have, I know that Steve Sitlers and those like him can as well. And no, I do not have a “gift of celibacy.”

There is no such thing as a “gift of celibacy” – the Bible does not teach this concept at all.

Being celibate does not mean that one does not get or will not have sexual desires and urges.

Asking a pedophile, or any adult single of any orientation, heterosexual or homosexual, to remain celibate over a life time is not asking the impossible.

For someone who heads some church in Iowa (or where ever it is), Wilson sure doesn’t know anything about celibacy.

Celibacy is a CHOICE a person makes, and an exercise of self control; it is not a divinely appointed orientation, nor in celibacy are sexual urges removed or diminished in a person by God.

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Please see Part 1 to this post:

(Link to Part 1): Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

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Related posts this blog:

(Link): There is No Such Thing as a Gift of Singleness or Gift of Celibacy or A Calling To Either One

(Link):  Our Bodies Were Not Made for Sex by T. Swann

(Link): Editorialist at WaPo Argues That Single Christian Adults Can Have Sex So Long As They are Chaste About It – Also Speculates that Jesus Was “Probably” Celibate

(Link):  Christian Radio Host Busted for Slapping Woman’s ‘Butt Cheek’ Inside Target Restroom – And How This Conflicts With Preacher Doug Wilson’s Propriety of Rape Commentary

(Link): The Myth of the Gift – Regarding Christian Teachings on Gift of Singleness and Gift of Celibacy

(Link):   Self Control – everyone has it, is capable of it, but most choose not to use it (New Study Says Conservatives Have Better Self Control Than Liberals)

 (Link): Marriage is Not A Cure For Pedophilia, Making a Joke of Marriage: Christian Preacher Marries A Known Pedophile To Young Woman, Pedophile Then Apparently Molests His Own Biological Infant Son By That Woman

(Link):  When Women Wanted Sex Much More Than Men – and how the stereotype flipped by A. Goldstein

(Link): Groundbreaking News: Women Like Sex (part 1, 2) (articles)

(Link): Why are we denying that women used Ashley Madison? by R. Margolis

(Link):  When society isn’t judging, women’s sex drive rivals men’s

(Link): Women are buying more sex than ever before, new research claims (May 2015)

(Link): Ramifications of Pre Martial Sex – Sky Diver Husband; Also: Stereotypes About All Men Wanting Sex Constantly and Being Visually Stimulated Disproven Again

 (Link): Sex, Love & Celibacy by Christian Author Dan Navin

(Link): Christian Double Standards on Celibacy – Hetero Singles Must Abstain from Sex but Not Homosexual Singles

(Link):  When True Love Keeps Waiting – What Celibacy Feels Like for Older Singles by A. McCracken

(Link): Christians and Cheap Grace Concerning Sexual Sin

(Link):   Consider The Source: Christians Who Give Singles Dating Advice Also Regularly Coach Wives to Stay in Abusive Marriages

(Link):  A Father Tries to Deny His Daughters Birth Control Coverage – I take this as another indication that conservatives do not truly believe in celibacy or sexual purity

(Link): Typical Erroneous Teaching About Adult Celibacy Rears Its Head Again: To Paraphrase Speaker at Ethics and Public Policy Center: Lifelong Celibacy is “heroic ethical standard that is not expected of heteros, so it should not be expected of homosexuals”

(Link): The Christian and Non Christian Phenomenon of Virgin Shaming and Celibate Shaming

(Link): False Christian Teaching: “Only A Few Are Called to Singleness and Celibacy” or (also false): God’s gifting of singleness is rare – More Accurate: God calls only a few to marriage and God gifts only the rare with the gift of Marriage

(Link): The Bible Does Not Teach Christians to “Focus On The Family” – The Idolization of Family by American Christians (article)

(Link):  Some Christians Have Some Very Strange, Unsettling,  Creepy, or Authoritarian Ideas About Marriage, Divorce, or Mate Selection – and they think they should make your life choices for you

(Link):  “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” – one of the most excellent Christian rebuttals I have seen against the Christian idolatry of marriage and natalism, and in support of adult singleness and celibacy – from CBE’s site

(Link):  Male Christian Researcher Mark Regnerus Believes Single Christian Women Should Marry Male Christian Porn Addicts – another Christian betrayal of sexual ethics and more evidence of Christians who do make an idol out of marriage

(Link): Anti Virginity Editorial by Christian Blogger Tim Challies – Do Hurt / Shame Feelings or Sexual Abuse Mean Christians Should Cease Supporting Virginity or Teaching About Sexual Purity

(Link): Permissiveness, Cheap Grace, and Easy Forgivism Run Amok in Christianity – Dallas Preacher Todd Wagner Says Christians Can Use Heroin (parallel to topic of sex, celibacy) / Why some Christians turn agnostic

Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

Christian Response FAIL to Sexual Sin – Easy Forgivism

On a recent episode of the Christian program “The 700 Club,” someone wrote in to their (Link): “Bring It On” segment to say she had an extra- marital affair, and her spouse divorced her as a result. She wants to know how to move on.

Basically, the host, Pat Robertson, said that she should forgive herself. He made some sort of remark about how we are all “sexual beings” and may slip into sexual sin from time to time-it’s totally expected and normal to commit sexual sin, he seemed to be saying.

While I am not advocating that this adulteress beat herself up over her sexual sin for the rest of her life, or that the church should line up to toss stones at her, I found Robertson’s tone, comments, and attitude about adultery a little too dismissive of sexual sin.

There was this underlying vibe in his reaction that all humans are going to slip and literally sin sexually (ie, actually engage in physical acts, not just engage in sexual fantasy). However, this is simply not true.

There are some Christians who remain virgins past their 20s. It is a very damaging assumption and fallacy to keep suggesting, as evangelicals, Neo Calvinists, Baptists, and fundamentalists do, that nobody can resist sexual desires for years or forever. People can in fact resist giving in to sexual desires and acting upon them- but they choose not to.

If God is so easy peasy to look past sexual sins, including in the case of adultery as Robertson is claiming, and if sliding into sexual acts outside of marriage is totally normal and to be expected, why should I remain sexually pure at my age (I’m over 40)? There is no reason to.
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Related post(s) this blog

(Link): Christians and Cheap Grace Concerning Sexual Sin

(Link):  Some Researchers Argue that Shame Should Be Used to Treat Sexual Compulsions

Seniors Flirt With AARP’s Online Dating Service

Seniors Flirt With AARP’s Online Dating Service

Oh geeze, does it never end? Another specialized dating site…

(Link): For those 50 and older, AARP is helping to find that special someone.

“I never expected to be single and 50,” says Dina Mande of Santa Monica, Calif., a frequent user of the site.

Related posts at this blog:

More Weird Ass Highly Specialized Dating Sites – Part 2 (or are we up to 3 now?)

TBN, Kirk Cameron, and Misplaced Over- Concern On Marriage – What About the Unmarried?

TBN, Kirk Cameron, and Misplaced Over- Concern On Marriage – What About the Unmarried?

I am watching TBN’s “Praise the Lord” right now. It’s hosted by Kirk Cameron.

Cameron is interviewing a young lady about the topic of marriage.

They are discussing how American society should define marriage.

In so doing, the lady guest (whose name I don’t know – the male guest sitting next to her has the last name “Stanley”), has made several observations I find dubious.

She comments that marriage is the building block of culture, and no other relationship binds a man and woman together like marriage can.

Putting that aside for the moment, why do these Christian talking heads not recognize the huge problem of protracted, unwanted singleness among Christian women? (See this link for more.)

When is Kirk Cameron going to do a show discussing the huge number of conservative Christian women who desire marriage but who are remaining single past their 30s and 40s?

Why is all the focus and alarm by Christians on so-called attacks on marriage by homosexual activists and liberals? Why are they not as concerned that Christian women who want marriage (and some want children) are more and more often arriving in their 40s husband-less and childless?

Continue reading “TBN, Kirk Cameron, and Misplaced Over- Concern On Marriage – What About the Unmarried?”

Forget About Being ‘Equally Yoked’ – Article: ‘My Abusive ‘Christian’ Marriage’

Forget About Being ‘Equally Yoked’ – Article: ‘My Abusive ‘Christian’ Marriage’

When it comes to dating or marriage, Christian men are not necessarily a better catch than Non-Christians, as I’ve mentioned before in previous posts (such as (Link): this one).

A lot of Christian wives are physically or emotionally abused by their regular-church-attending Christian husbands.

Some are murdered by their preacher husbands.

If you run an internet search for the phrase “preacher murdered wife,” you will receive hundreds of news stories of, well, preachers who killed their wives.

Here is but one example of many that turned up on a search engine:

(Link): Preacher [Anthony Hopkins] killed wife, stuffed body in freezer, police say – CNN.com

You are just as better off marrying a Non-Christian guy as a Christian one.

I find most Non Christians easier to talk to – they are usually less judgemental. They are usually less likely to try to find a religious reason for your pain in life and blame you for it.

I’ve been friends and acquaintances with Non-Christian men that were very sweet guys. There is no advantage in marrying a Christian, and Christian women out-number the males, so your chances of finding a decent Christian guy past the age of 35 to marry are about nil.

I would assume that the Christian women who wrote this following page, like a lot of Christian women, probably prayed and asked God to direct the right guy her, and was trusting that this guy she met at a Christian college was “God’s choice” for her spouse.

What does it say about God’s character and His claims to provide for you (supposedly, if you ask God for bread, he will not give you a rock, as Christ said), and what does it say of God’s claim in the Word that he will answer your prayers, that he permits Christian women who are sincerely trusting him for a decent spouse, that he allows so many to wind up with abusive, dangerous bastards who are regular church goers, Bible readers, and who appear to be true Christians from all outward appearances? And then churches tell these poor women they are stuck with these abusive jack-asses until they die, which is insensitive and dangerous teaching, as some abusive men wind up killing their wives.

There’s a very twisted Christian culture in America that thinks divorce a greater sin than murder, apparently.

Also bear in mind that in much Christian advice in literature on marriage, it is commonly suggested that if you are still single past a certain age, it’s because there is something wrong with you.

That is, it is either implied or stated implicitly, in many Christian books and blogs, that marriage is a reward by God for Christians who reach some sort of level of spiritual perfection, so there must be something lacking in you, your character, or spirituality, that is preventing God from sending you a spouse. That abusive Christians are getting Christian spouses regularly is another point that easily dispells this myth that a Christian must be completely perfect and holy before he or she can merit a spouse.

Continue reading “Forget About Being ‘Equally Yoked’ – Article: ‘My Abusive ‘Christian’ Marriage’”

And That’s What Churches Get for Ignoring Unmarrieds from Ages 30 – 59

And That’s What Churches Get for Ignoring Unmarrieds from Ages 30 – 59

(Link): 60% of Congregations’ Giving Not Keeping Up with Inflation

Quotes:

    According to the report [report from the Indiana University School of Philanthropy], “only about 4 in 10 congregations had revenues that kept pace or were ahead of inflation between 2007 and 2011. Congregations with the oldest average age of attendees were more likely to report that revenue growth lagged behind inflation.” Philanthropic success appears tied not only to the age of congregants, but also to pastors’ attention to giving.

So, churches cannot attract or keep 20-somethings, yet spend all their time and resources trying to reel them in (many 20-somethings have little to no income anyhow), and they ignore the singles ages 30- 59 (many of whom are employed and earning pay checks, and who comprise up to about 50% of the American population), and are now filled with folks who are retired (ages 65 and up), and these older folks either don’t have much money to give, or are unwilling to give it to their churches.

If churches paid more attention to the unmarrieds from ages 30 – 59 and tried to meet their needs, they would not be driving them away, and therefore they’d probably be receiving larger tithes, or tithes more often, from that group. But no, they continue to brush off or ignore singles ages 30 – 59 – to their own folly.

And all I can say is ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

And then there’s this ((Link): source):

    The majority of churches say that finding enough funding and volunteers are the two biggest obstacles to doing outreach locally, nationally, and internationally.

Yeah, gee, maybe if churches stopped driving unmarrieds of age 30+ away with treating them like crud and only assisting marrieds and discussing parenting, they’d have more willing volunteers for their projects.

Author Michael DiMarco talks about his book True Purity (audio interview)

Author Michael DiMarco talks about his book True Purity. (audio interview)

There is a link below to an interview by Mefferd with an author, DiMarco, who wrote a book called “True Purity.” He discusses how to present celibacy / sexual purity to people, particularly teens (why is the focus always on TEENS and 20 somethings? First mistake right there).

It’s been a couple of weeks since I listened to the interview, so I don’t recall all the details. Based on what I do recall…

The author discusses how much teaching on abstinence fails because it does not center the teaching in who people are “in Christ.”

DiMarco seems to feel if only people remember they have a relationship with Jesus, that this will strengthen them or enable them to abstain from sex. That may be true in part for some Christians who remain virgins past the age of 30, but in some ways it’s a vague and ineffective response.

It is common for some Christian authors to intellectualize celibacy and sexual matters, and this author is no different. Intellecutalizing the issues doesn’t do anything to really solve the issue or tackle some of the core issues singles face, especially for unmarrieds over the age of 35, other than having unfulfilled sexual desires: one of their biggest obstacles is loneliness.

Continue reading “Author Michael DiMarco talks about his book True Purity (audio interview)”

Commentary on the Editorial Entitled – Pastors, We Must Do Better on Premarital Sexual Ethics

Commentary on the Editorial Entitled “Pastors, We Must Do Better on Premarital Sexual Ethics” (copy)

I did some reading on the internet this morning, and found this on Crossway:

(Link): Pastors, We Must Do Better on Premarital Sexual Ethics

The piece is written by a Gerald Hiestand, where he frets that unmarried Christians between the ages of 18 – 29 are having sex outside of marriage. Several times, and in big letters to drive the point home, we are told:

“Only 20% of single evangelicals remain abstinent.”

80% of Christians below the age of 29 are fornicating: GOOD
80% of Christians below the age of 29 are fornicating: GOOD

The rest of the editorial is filled with the usual laments about how current sexual purity teachings are letting down youth and so forth.
(Please click the “read more” link to read the rest of this post, there is plenty more below.)

Continue reading “Commentary on the Editorial Entitled – Pastors, We Must Do Better on Premarital Sexual Ethics”

The Sexualization of God and Jesus

The Sexualization of God and Jesus

As I discussed in a previous post, (Link): “Topics: Friendship is Possible / Sexualization By Culture Of All Relationships” secular culture and Christian culture both have a habit of sexualizing everything and everyone.

I just came across a blog page that says some Catholics(?) have done the same thing with God the Father and Jesus:

(Link): Kissing God & Emulating Saints: How Catholicism and The Bridal Paradigm are leaking into the body of Messiah

I hope the author of the page is not pushing for a so-called “masculine” God or Christianity, a la John Piper. The Bible teaches that God the Father is a spirit being, so he does not have a gender per se, though he does have qualities we would associate with both human males and females, from anger to gentleness.

Anyway, here’s an excerpt or two from the page:

  • One of the major cracks in IHOP’s faulty foundation is their return in many ways to the New Age roots of Catholicism…..
  • The book of Song of Solomon is held above the rest of scripture as the primary way G-d relates to His people.
  • This makes G-d out to be a sexual, lovesick, love-struck, hormone-driven teenager who is so “captivated” and “awestruck” that He longs after humanity and is running around Heaven going crazy without her.
  • The relationship G-d has to Israel is likened to that of a marriage in a few places in scripture…but it’s with the nation of Israel as a whole…it’s not an individual romance between God and a person.
  • The book of Song of Solomon is written about the natural marriage relationship between husband and wife as written by Solomon about his own marriage.
  • It is not the blueprint of Christianity or the primary starry-eyed, lustful way that IHOP paints G-d’s view of His people.
  • On 9/24/07, an ex-ihoper shares on a blog forum that as part of the required reading curriculum at IHOP’s Forerunner School of Ministry, students have to read a book called “The The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus” written by a Franciscan Priest named Brennan Manning. Chapter six expounds on the belief of the author that “God is sexually aroused by His people.”
  • This led students to confessing that reading this book caused them to have sexual thoughts…which they forced themselves to excuse away by telling themselves “well, God feels this way so it’s ok”.

And there you have it, the continued warped, odd obsession some people have with sexualizing persons, relationships, ideas, or things that have nothing to do with sex. It really is a pervasive disease in our culture.

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Related posts this blog:

(Link): Marketing Companies Offering ‘Sexy Jesus’ Calendar, Selfies With Jesus

(Link): Self Professing Christian Guy, Closeted Homosexual, Apparently Killed His Fiance’ (or had her killed) – Also: Christian Group IHOP Sexualizes Jesus Christ and God

(Link): Editorialist at WaPo Argues That Single Christian Adults Can Have Sex So Long As They are Chaste About It – Also Speculates that Jesus Was “Probably” Celibate

(Link): Let Us Prey: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church – article about sexual abuse in Baptist churches -article mentions how Baptist preacher sexualized Jesus

(Link): Is Jesus Too Sexy? Too Sexy for His Hat, Too Sexy for His Shirt? And What About Salome in Movies? / Re: Actor Diogo Morgado and Depictions of Jesus in Movies – Including Son of God

(Link): How the Sexual Revolution Ruined Friendship – Also: If Christians Truly Believed in Celibacy and Virginity, they would stop adhering to certain sexual and gender stereotypes that work against both

(Link): Topics: Friendship is Possible / Sexualization By Culture Of All Relationships

More Weird Ass Highly Specialized Dating Sites

More Weird Ass Highly Specialized Dating Sites – Part 2 (or are we up to 3 now?)

I was just made aware of a new dating site: “For Farmers Only.com”

There are dating sites for people over 50, people with Herpes (see link far below), Jewish people only, people with mental health problems.

Here is a quote from the Farmers dating site home page:

    For Famers Only – Dating Site

    Online Dating for down to earth singles is growing across America’s Heartland coast to coast!

    FarmersOnly.com is a dating site like no other. We exist because, the way we see it, there are basically two groups in America. Group one revolves around four dollar cups of coffee, taxi cabs, blue suits, and getting ahead at all costs in the corporate world. If you fall into this group then FarmersOnly is not where you want to be dating online. There are plenty of hard to trust dating sites out there for ya though! Group two enjoys blue skies, living free and at peace in wide open spaces, raising animals, and appreciating nature. We understand the meaning of Southern hospitality, even if we don’t all live in the South. This group makes up America’s Heartland – the slice of America with good old fashioned traditional values, values that were never lost by the farmers of our country. These values have also been preserved by the cowboys and cowgirls who still live on the edge, nature lovers who don’t take the outdoors for granted even though it is free, and horse lovers, ag students, and other animal lovers. If you’re in this group and going to be dating online, there is no dating site that comes even close to FarmersOnly.com. And you don’t have to take our word for it: You can check out who is on our site for free!

    So why is it different from other dating sites?

    We feel there is a greater need for this dating site than any other. The founders of FarmersOnly work with thousands of farms and ranches across the country, and met a number of single farmers of all different ages with one thing in common–they were all having a difficult time finding someone special. Why? Let’s face it: How many new people do you meet working on the farm all day?

    One farmer told us the story of her frustrations in finding her match. She thought that dating online would be the answer and joined some of the big national online dating sites.

    What she found was that the city folks that dominated these online dating sites couldn’t relate to her lifestyle. They wanted to meet at 9:00 p.m. for a cup of coffee when she would typically be preparing (going to bed) for the next day, which started at 5:00 a.m. Caffeine at that hour was the last thing she needed!

    We also talked to people living in small towns surrounded by farmland, where everybody already knows everybody. If they didn’t marry their high school sweetheart, it was difficult to meet someone new who understood the rural lifestyle.

    City folks just don’t get it!™

    When we looked for dating sites for farmers, we found sites that claimed to cater to farmers, ranchers, and country dwellers, but the majority of postings seemed to be from people living in big cities—if the people were real at all! Just looking at the postings, they sure didn’t look like farmers to us!

    So we built an online dating site that’s 100% for farmers, ranchers, and those who can relate to the rural and country lifestyle, and where you can register for free in order to get a feel for who is on our site.

    Instead of asking what your astrological sign is, at FarmersOnly.com we ask if you raise or breed alpacas, horses, cattle, chickens, dogs, goats, rabbits, sheep, grow crops, or if you’re an organic farmer, student farmer, cowboy, cowgirl, or just a farmer wanna be! How many singles sites do that?!

Related pages at this blog:

Those Times When You’re Glad to be a Celibate, Single Christian – 2 [Dating Site for People with Herpes]

Stop Telling Your Single Friends to Try Dating Sites – Please.

Why Online Dating Does Not Work

Pandering to the Youth – Parallel Between Politics and Contemporary Christianity

Pandering to the Youth

I feel this commentary by Rush Limbaugh about political parties pandering to youth these days can just as easily apply to how American denominations and churches are forever chasing after and pandering to youth:

(Link): Pandering to Millennials Will Ruin the GOP

Excerpts:

I understand the desire and need for people of younger generations to be heard and acknowledged. I totally get that.

But the truth is that it is up to you to be heard, up to you to get noticed, up to you to stand out. You are not entitled to be respected just because of your age. The only exception is the Seasoned Citizen population, which is the greatest collection of wisdom in the country (I don’t expect you to believe that).

You can demand to be respected, recognized, and listened to all day long, but understand that no one has any obligation to listen to you. You are going to have to make them want to … by virtue of your achievements. By demonstrating potential. By being interesting. Yes, even by being provocative. Fearless.

Everyone has the right to speak, but we do not have a right to be listened to. No one has a constitutional right to be heard. In other words, don’t sit around and wait and hope or demand that somebody listen to you. Take action. Be heard, but above all, make something happen.

…. I think a political party that reaches out to groups and demographics with ideas that lack cohesion is a party destined to lose because it will fragment. A party has to be about a universal set of principles and ideas that attract all kinds of people from all walks of life. All ages, all genders, all orientations. It has been done recently. Ronald Reagan won two landslide elections in 1980 and 1984. You can tailor your message for individual groups, but not your principles.
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Regarding:

“A party has to be about a universal set of principles and ideas that attract all kinds of people from all walks of life. All ages, all genders, all orientations.”

I think that is one thing Jesus Christ set out to do with the church, but today’s American Christianity is focused exclusively on these types of people:
1. Youth (children/ teens/ single 20 somethings)
2. Married couples (of ages 20 something to about 50)
3. Parents
So that many people who don’t fit any one of those categories feels excluded, and they drift away from the faith, or stop attending church.

How Did this Idiot Get A Wife? – ‘They’re Married?!’ Series

How Did this Idiot Get A Wife? – ‘They’re Married?!’ Series

(Link): Things That Make You Go Hmmm …

Letter to an advice columnist, “Dear Prudence”:

I’d like to give my new love the hardly used vibrator of my deceased wife. That cool?

  • Dear Prudence,
    In the summer of 2011 my wife and I purchased a top-of-the-line Jopen vibrator. We used it a few times and were just beginning to really integrate it into our sex lives when my wife died suddenly of a heart attack. (The vibrator had nothing to do with that.)
  • Now, more than a year later, I’ve begun to date again. I’ve met a woman with an open mind, and I’m thinking she might be interested in using the vibrator.
  • But I’m not sure how, or whether, to suggest it. Is it creepy to offer a dead woman’s vibrator to someone else? And if so what else can I do with it? Sell it on Craigslist?

    It’s an expensive piece of equipment, barely used, and it should be employed (and loved) once again.

    All of my wife’s other major possessions found wonderful new homes with dear friends of hers. But then again, a vibrator’s got a different—well, vibe about it. Sell it, toss it, or share it?
    —Oscillating

What. The. Hell. Dude?

Ewww. Gross. And how is it that a moron like this gets a spouse, then a girlfriend… and meanwhile, I’m still single? Just wow.

Why Marriage Is Good for Your Health — Until You Get Sick (copy)

Why Marriage Is Good for Your Health — Until You Get Sick

(Link): Why Marriage Is Good for Your Health — Until You Get Sick

It’s supposed to last through sickness and in health, but it turns out that it’s a better idea to get married because you love someone, not because you think it’s going to keep you healthy for the long haul.

That’s the message from a study published this month in the Journal of Health and Social Behavior, which contradicts previous research that extolled the health benefits of partnership. It turns out that marriage is all well and good — until a person’s health starts declining.

….But while “marriage is good for health, … its protective effect declines as people’s health declines,” says Zheng.

What’s going on? Does love fade as health fades? That’s hard to document from the studies analyzed, but part of the explanation may be more prosaic. Married people are not as quick to report declining health as unmarried people. So by the time a married person cops to having failing health, that person may already be in dire straits.

2008 Audio Interview with Julia Duin About Christian Singles

2008 Audio Interview with Julia Duin About Christian Singles

(Link): Interview About Christian Singles with Julia Duin, author of “Quitting Church”

The interview also covers the subjects of unanswered prayer, how single mothers are ignored and single women marginalized, Christian views on sex, and other topics are covered.

I recommend this interview a lot. If you are over 35 and never married, and were a Christian at any time (or still are one), you will totally relate to this discussion. I tried to embed the audio into this post two ways, but neither one worked.

American Colleges Want Your Sex

American Colleges Want Your Sex

According to a Yale graduate, Yale (and a lot of colleges) want your sex too!

This guy wrote a book (see links below) where he explains that many American colleges host “sex week” where nude porno actresses perform sex acts in front of students, sex toy manufacturers display and market sex toys to students on campuses, and so on.

(Link: God and Sex At Yale, by By Harden, Nathan (book for sale))

(Link): Sex Week: God, Yale and a Good Education Gone Bad (interview with the author)

I remember growing up in the 1980s and 1990s and all the secular feminists telling me that to be truly empowered that I ought to be having lots of sex, with as many partners as I wanted, and as often as I wanted.

As I have discussed in previous posts, churches are telling me that God is “pro sex” and wants me to have a great sex life.

Now colleges are getting in on it too.

All these people telling me to have sex.

Churches want my sex. Universities want my sex. Feminists want my sex. Horn dog idiots on dating sites want my sex. Day-um, I am popular. American culture sure as hell is obsessed with sex.
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—Links to Previous Related Posts on This Blog—

The Church Wants Your Sex – Part 1 (Ed Young’s Sexperiment)

The Church Wants Your Sex Part 2 – ‘Your Lame Sex Life’

The Church Wants Your Sex Part 2 – ‘Your Lame Sex Life’

The Church Wants Your Sex Part 2 – ‘Your Lame Sex Life’ church sponsored site

Church sponsored site:

(Link: My Lame Sex [Life] site)

(Link: Lame Sex Lame Excuses (video on You Tube))

(Link: Lame Sex (entire video SERIES on You Tube))

The sex site and sex series is from CCF AZ (Cornerstone Christian Fellowship in Arizona).

So, to the guys and pastor at Cornerstone Christian Fellowship in AZ… what sermons or advice do you have for over -40- years- of- age, never married, or over age 30 singles, who haven’t had sex yet? Or do we not matter? (click the “read more” link to read the rest of the post)
Continue reading “The Church Wants Your Sex Part 2 – ‘Your Lame Sex Life’”

The Church Wants Your Sex – Video For Ed Young’s ‘Sexperiment’

1980s British pop singer George Michael isn’t the only one who wants your sex. Churches do, too.

(By the way, I find the whole ‘George Michael was a sex symbol for lots of women back in the 80s and singing a song telling hetero-sexual people to want sex thing’ oh so funny considering he later came out as a flaming homosexual who has sex with men he’s never met before in parks.)

You remember Ed Young’s “Sexperiment.” Sure you do! (Link: Ed Young’s Controversial ‘Sexperiment’ Book Debuts on NY Times Best Sellers List)

Now, there’s a…

(Link): Sexperiment Launch Kit (video)

In the cheese ball video, we’re told that “strengthening marriages will strengthen the church”

I see. So who cares about all the never-married, divorced, and widowed Christians in your church and strengthening them? Nobody, it would seem.
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—Links to Previous Related Posts on This Blog—

I see you’ve never heard of Mark Driscoll

Pastor on TV: ‘Churches don’t talk about sex enough’ -is he kidding?

Never Married Christians Over Age 35 who are childless Are More Ignored Than Divorced or Infertile People or Single Parents

Part 2, The Parable of the Neglected Unmarried – Single – Christian

Topics: Friendship is Possible / Sexualization By Culture Of All Relationships